IMG proposals

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I don't think there's a poster on this thread who doesn't have at least twenty years of watching rugby league.

So, keeping it to the Challenge Cup, what can be done to attract people to watch it for whom that isn't the case - because it really shouldn't be about enthusing that same group who are always expected to turn up.

 

To a certain extent, you need that same group. In general, a whole bunch of new fans would have a better time at Headingley or even Wembley for example if there were thousands more other fans there (and vice versa). 

The things that people often purport to like about the cup seem to me to always be heavily tinged with a sense of nostalgia and wistfulness that a new fan simply cannot have. We need to forget "back in my day" and sell what we have now. 

Some of that might be accepting that straight knockout cup games just don't get the blood pumping in people the way they used to. Wembley and London isn't as big a hook anymore either. The League Champions are now the best team in the land. The things the Cup used to sell itself on are no longer there. 

All that can be surmised by the simple fact that if we didn't already have a cup competition, we wouldn't be starting one now. 

RL has struggled to adapt its historic competitions into the modern world, Super League aside and even then there are big question marks. The County Cups are now no longer awarded or played for, instead of being adapted, for example.

Where that leaves the Challenge Cup, I'm not sure. A Group Stage, as a partial replacement for Loop fixtures, may mean tying in your question in with how do you get more new audiences engaged with the sport full stop. Is there a question of avoiding pitting the Cup competition against as much else as possible? Maybe. 

[bar red]

Let the clubs have as many games as they want, just reduce the number of games each player can play.

 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Basically by forcing the supporters to buy the tickets if they want a ST for SL 

Yep. And what's more, and I believe other posters have this info to hand much more readily than myself, but the majority of supporters do actually go too - just as they do for loop games currently. 

If you're trying to deal with an attendance issue, then using a one off ticketing system which hasn't worked well in these fixtures for over a decade instead of the system a large amount of your fanbase have adopted is frankly nonsensical.

[Jughead]

15 minutes ago, Oxford said:

It Saints beat the Warriors or the Wolves by 100, no matter what your expectations were, the spectacle would look much the same, the excitement would be questionable and the appearance for all Wigan's or Warrington's standing  would be very similar.

That level of difference doesn't register in any significant way no matter what side you're playing.

Yes, it clearly does differ. 

Convincingly beating your biggest rivals generates, understandably, a swell of excitement and celebration, as is the case when Wigan nilled Saints at Wembley and when Saints put 75 on Ian Millward’s Wigan. The atmosphere generated by the winning side’s fanbase is abundantly clear, too. 

Beating a team you’re expected to beat comfortably will generate little more than a shrug of the shoulders and a glance at the next fixture. 

Expectation is the key differential here. 

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

A comment on the attendances thread is perhaps relevant here:

"£15 to watch our more or less full strength team destroy a part time League 1 side is never ever going to draw anything like a crowd."

Could be describing most middle rounds cup games

A problem is that they 'fixed' this with the seeding and crowds are still low, suggesting that playing the low teams isn't really the issue (although i absolutely agree with the point highlighted).

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Expectation is the key differential here. 

Only if you see beating opponents by tons, on your good day and their bad one as nothing to do with what happens on the pitch.

Good discussion . Think it's at an end now though.

[Dave T]

One thing we do need to be very careful of, is not to kill off the cup with unrealistic desires for yesteryear. 

The cup has a place, that place may not be big early rounds each year. 

What it does bring is a huge marquee final, a decent semi finals day, plus prominent terrestrial coverage on the BBC. 

It doesn't have to be bigger than the league, so maybe we should stop comparing it to that. 

We should focus on making it the best it can be, but in all likelihood, it ain't gonna be like it used to be in our sometimes clouded memories. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

A problem is that they 'fixed' this with the seeding and crowds are still low, suggesting that playing the low teams isn't really the issue (although i absolutely agree with the point highlighted).

Yeah I think ultimately its an interest issue (which is broad I appreciate) compounded by other factors none less so than ticketing.

[GUBRATS]

31 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If group stages are being considered than maybe the Cup has had its day. Super League clubs would probably rather carry on with loop league fixtures rather than replace them with games against lower league teams. The top Championship clubs wouldn’t want too many Cup games as they will be wanting to put their focus on promotion. 

No amount of changing or tinkering will get the Cup to just being close to what it used to be. The league is the be all and end all and bringing in a group stage won’t do anything to improve the Cups standing to the league.

 

You're right about the Championship clubs , our run in the cup in 2015 probably cost us a chance of promotion , we were busted after 3 hard games against SL teams and were walking wounded by the time the 8s came along 

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

If they are ' pre ordained ' at the start of the season , then they are loop fixtures , in theory ( unlikely I know ) a SL team could draw all non SL teams in the CC 

It isn't fixing anything 

I'm not sure what you mean. We have no idea what any group stage would look like. 

But they aren't loop fixtures. Loop fixtures are a specific thing, and drawing a team in the cup is not a loop fixture. 

[Blind side johnny]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

In Rugby League's case it purposely went down the road of devaluing the Challenge Cup to advance the play offs and Grand Final. It has reaped what it sowed on this. Even now the date for the final is still being shuffled around when it should be easy to have a set date and structure and have a showpiece final in June and further away from the Grand Final. Instead we have gone from May last year to August again this year (and completely ignored what the BBC has previously requested on this too). The RFL's attitude to the Challenge Cup really hasn't helped.

I don't think radical reform is possible with the parameters the game faces. It is simply not strong enough with enough fully professional teams to talk about foreign leagues. Group stages just become a mini SL and loop fixtures in another guise. In my opinion we just have to make what we have better. There is plenty of good things about the Challenge Cup and some of the early rounds are fantastic. Over 3k at an amateur game in St Pats v Rose Bridge is tremendous for the game and there are usually plenty of quality early round matches. 60k+ for a final with terrible presentation is not to be sniffed at or tossed aside either. The main issues are actually around the bigger SL teams, semi finals and what should be marquee fixtures. Improve those and the perception changes enormously. With a little effort what we currently have can be improved tremendously and if not then its still better than just a SL competition and nothing else.

This would be in the same way that the PL/EFL/FA have devalued the FA cup?

Maybe, just maybe the public perception of knockout cup competitions in sport is not what it was rather than it being a deliberate policy of sports administrations to run them down?

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

This would be in the same way that the PL/EFL/FA have devalued the FA cup?

Maybe, just maybe the public perception of knockout cup competitions in sport is not what it was rather than it being a deliberate policy of sports administrations to run them down?

Well no because the Champions League taking off in terms of money, games and qualification spots devalued the FA Cup.

Maurice Lindsay also said it was a deliberate policy to make the Grand Final the be all and end all at the expense of the Challenge Cup.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Damien

[Oxford]

6 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The CC still drew some very high tv figures for the sport in semis and finals, with a sport with so few decent events we can’t afford for it to die. 

 

Another issue is will more events help?

It was certainly true when there were more things to win. And just as true that we can't ever depend on Internationals to help with event management and strategies.

Part of the strategy for the CC must be makingn more of it and it's pointless relying on the beeb to wake up and smell the coffee on this one, still far too wrapped up in London and Westminster to react to anything else.

[gingerjon]

20 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The CC still drew some very high tv figures for the sport in semis and finals, with a sport with so few decent events we can’t afford for it to die. 

 

And we do get superb coverage on the BBC for it. That's not - yet - replaceable by anything else.

I don't see a solution that addresses all of the concerns everyone has about the competition though. Maybe it simply doesn't exist.

[Niels]

I watched the Edinburgh game which is still on the Iplayer.

I thought they were a bit unlucky. They were penalised 3 times in possession in attack which was costly. I felt they could have won had they been a bit more experienced. Saddleworth knew how to win and to do the basics better.

However there are certainly good signs for Scotland at the moment!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Niels

[Oxford]

6 minutes ago, Niels said:

They were penalised 3 times in possession in attack

This is spot on and sort of unusual to say the least.

 

12 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And we do get superb coverage on the BBC for it. That's not - yet - replaceable by anything else.

This is true for the later rounds with real presentation and production but getting the CC on the red button can only be termed superb if you're grateful it's covered at all.

 

Of course it may be that one of the changes brought about by modern media/audience relationships is that events considered "high caliber" unusual, fashionable, on trend etc matter and everything else is quite irrelevant.

[redjonn]

17 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And we do get superb coverage on the BBC for it. That's not - yet - replaceable by anything else.

I don't see a solution that addresses all of the concerns everyone has about the competition though. Maybe it simply doesn't exist.

you are probably right in regard to addressing all concerns.

AS has been said we get good coverage on the BBC, which mustn't be lost as a consequence of tinkering with structures.

For me its the prestige of the final that the big factor. If we were filling Wembley I don't think we would be tinkering with earlier rounds.  Getting to a must not miss final is a driver in itself. plus attracts interest from the town the teams come from and attendance of normally non RL attending people.  For me the CC focus should be on creating and improving the spectacle at the finals stadium (which doesn't or should say didn't have to be wembley).  Rather than tinkering with the earlier rounds as the problem will remain.

Yep, I understand the SL loop issue but the focus on fixing that  with the CC seems daft.

 

[Niels]

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

This is spot on and sort of unusual to say the least.

 

This is true for the later rounds with real presentation and production but getting the CC on the red button can only be termed superb if you're grateful it's covered at all.

 

Of course it may be that one of the changes brought about by modern media/audience relationships is that events considered "high caliber" unusual, fashionable, on trend etc matter and everything else is quite irrelevant.

Yes I thought it was very harsh for that level.

Alex Walmsley is my favourite English player, and referees allow him some leeway if he accidently moves off the correct spot. 

But Edinburgh had some good players and were a lot better than I had expected.

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

You could do 6 groups of 5. 

2 SL teams per group and 2 championship in most groups 

Bottom 2 championship and 4 others fill the rest up 

Top team and 2 best runners up progress to QF

Play Super league ties mostly last- with expectaation that they will be group deciders 

2 home games, 2 away- over 5 weeks. 

I think that might work quite nicely. 

Edit: you could play weaker matches in 6N weekends and weeks 4 and 5 could have SL games. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Rugbyleaguesupporter

[Dave T]

57 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And we do get superb coverage on the BBC for it. That's not - yet - replaceable by anything else.

I don't see a solution that addresses all of the concerns everyone has about the competition though. Maybe it simply doesn't exist.

I think that's exactly how I feel tbh. 

[Oxford]

32 minutes ago, Niels said:

Alex Walmsley is my favourite English player, and referees allow him some leeway if he accidently moves off the correct spot. 

I'm afraid there are lots of things like this because RL rules tend to favour the dominant side and some well coached sides play to the Refs  peccadillos though saying so out loud might be a bit ...... on here.

 

Back to IMG though and one thing that's crystal clear here is the idea that every match should be treated as an event and big events even more so.

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, redjonn said:

you are probably right in regard to addressing all concerns.

AS has been said we get good coverage on the BBC, which mustn't be lost as a consequence of tinkering with structures.

For me its the prestige of the final that the big factor. If we were filling Wembley I don't think we would be tinkering with earlier rounds.  Getting to a must not miss final is a driver in itself. plus attracts interest from the town the teams come from and attendance of normally non RL attending people.  For me the CC focus should be on creating and improving the spectacle at the finals stadium (which doesn't or should say didn't have to be wembley).  Rather than tinkering with the earlier rounds as the problem will remain.

Yep, I understand the SL loop issue but the focus on fixing that  with the CC seems daft.

I agree with this. Focus on improving the final and semi final experience and the perception changes from that. There is plenty good about the earlier rounds and the issues around crowds are firmly a SL club issue, and the bigger clubs at that.

[Oxford]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

Focus on improving the final and semi final experience and the perception changes

Yes the event strategy is crucial but perceptions  will only alter with a far wider reach and footprint market wise.

The trouble is with our favoured partners is that they're both uninterested in the Sport's overall growth.

The beeb is sadly too establishment to change and Sky would have to pay more for a sport with a greater market influence.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Oxford

[The Masked Poster]

It's not the job of the BBC or Sky to grow the game of Rugby League, nor any other sport, just to broadcast what is on offer. 

Rugby League is a big boy now, it needs to stop hoping that a miracle will happen and get on with it. Otherwise, stop blaming everyone and everything else. 

[steve oates]

19 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It's less games and more money 

"The group stage format is another bad idea. If the SL clubs want the end of loop fixtures expand the league". 

This (the quote at the very top) was your reply above to a Shropshire Bull's suggestion above of a 12 club Superleague.

It indicates a sensible suggestion to get more fans from more clubs watching Superleague as opposed to running loop fixtures................Was your reply supportive of this idea???  Would your philpsopher friend agree? 

The two clubs aren't that well supported when in the Championship but Leigh and Fev will be much better supported in Superleague which is proven by Leigh SL games....   PLUS games like Wigan.v.Leigh and Featherstone.v.Castleford derbies certainly are big well supported games..............

Is it a good idea or not??