Roses series

[GUBRATS]

34 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

What’s happened is Lancashire’s main cities have grown into places of international fame and glory while you lot have been going down big hills in shopping trolleys in Holmfirth ‘Last of the Summer Wine style’ and generally living in the past!

 

 

 

Spot on 

[Griff]

39 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

What’s happened is Lancashire’s main cities have grown into places of international fame and glory while you lot have been going down big hills in shopping trolleys in Holmfirth ‘Last of the Summer Wine style’! 

 

All but one of Yorkshire's cities have rugby league teams.   Some have two.

In contrast, only one of Lancashire's cities has a team.

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

All but one of Yorkshire's cities have rugby league teams.   Some have two.

In contrast, only one of Lancashire's cities has a team.

And the one Yorkshire city that doesn't have a team (Ripon) has a similar population to Featherstone, so would probably be subject to the 'small time sport' jibes that Fev gets even if it did have one.

[Griff]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

And the one Yorkshire city that doesn't have a team (Ripon) has a similar population to Featherstone, so would probably be subject to the 'small time sport' jibes that Fev gets even if it did have one.

True, true, how true.

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

All but one of Yorkshire's cities have rugby league teams.   Some have two.

In contrast, only one of Lancashire's cities has a team.

True , but we have 3 of the biggest , richest football teams in the world , you have Leeds , who everybody hates and will be back where they belong next season

[EagleEyePie]

9 hours ago, gingerjon said:

My key question remains: how excited would you be for a mid-season match or series between Yorkshire and Lancashire?

I'd be more excited by a Lancashire-Yorkshire match than an England-Exiles (or Combined Nations) match and to be honest probably more excited than an England-France fixture. But then I'm different to most people in that in terms of identity I'd see myself as a Wiganer and Lancastrian before English or British.

[gingerjon]

19 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

I'd be more excited by a Lancashire-Yorkshire match than an England-Exiles (or Combined Nations) match and to be honest probably more excited than an England-France fixture. But then I'm different to most people in that in terms of identity I'd see myself as a Wiganer and Lancastrian before English or British.

You have a choice between Lancashire beating Yorkshire with a last minute try to win the 2024 Roses or Wigan beating Saints to win the Super League Grand Final with a last gasp try.

Which do you take?

[EagleEyePie]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

You have a choice between Lancashire beating Yorkshire with a last minute try to win the 2024 Roses or Wigan beating Saints to win the Super League Grand Final with a last gasp try.

Which do you take?

Wigan winning the Grand Final of course, but I don't know what the point of the question is as the answer was fairly obvious.

[gingerjon]

22 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

Wigan winning the Grand Final of course, but I don't know what the point of the question is as the answer was fairly obvious.

It is. But it’s also the reason why we won’t be able to replicate State of Origin here.

There have to be some people who would back the last minute county win over the club win for the format to stand a chance.

[Griff]

59 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

True , but we have 3 of the biggest , richest football teams in the world , you have Leeds , who everybody hates and will be back where they belong next season

Not interested in soccer, fella. It's a simple game for simple folk.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

Not interested in soccer, fella. It's a simple game for simple folk.

Highlighting a ' City ' the size of Fev diminishes your argument 

 

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Highlighting a ' City ' the size of Fev diminishes your argument 

 

Well, that wasn't me but the mere fact that you thought it was proves my point.

[EagleEyePie]

13 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It is. But it’s also the reason why we won’t be able to replicate State of Origin here.

There have to be some people who would back the last minute county win over the club win for the format to stand a chance.

Wouldn't most NRL fans prefer their club side to win ahead of their Origin side? Surely that has more to do with the time that's invested in following clubs sides compared to how much time would be spent following a county team. It's not like it's an either/or. You can follow club, origin and national team passionately if you choose to do so.

People will get invested in a good event and if they don't have a natural affiliation many will choose one. For me the obstacle that can't be overcome is the same one that prevents our international game from growing. Apathy and an inability to successfully market the game outside a few already established events.

[gingerjon]

14 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

Wouldn't most NRL fans prefer their club side to win ahead of their Origin side? Surely that has more to do with the time that's invested in following clubs sides compared to how much time would be spent following a county team. It's not like it's an either/or. You can follow club, origin and national team passionately if you choose to do so.

People will get invested in a good event and if they don't have a natural affiliation many will choose one. For me the obstacle that can't be overcome is the same one that prevents our international game from growing. Apathy and an inability to successfully market the game outside a few already established events.

The difference being that Origin draws more people than club games though. There are people who don't watch the NRL week in week out who care about what happen when New South Wales meet Queensland. Casuals turn up, tune in and get invested.

We've nearly a hundred examples of that simply not happening with Lancashire and Yorkshire rugby league. And, because it will be a second-best-option to everyone involved that is not really going to change with just 'marketing'.

[EagleEyePie]

46 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The difference being that Origin draws more people than club games though. There are people who don't watch the NRL week in week out who care about what happen when New South Wales meet Queensland. Casuals turn up, tune in and get invested.

We've nearly a hundred examples of that simply not happening with Lancashire and Yorkshire rugby league. And, because it will be a second-best-option to everyone involved that is not really going to change with just 'marketing'.

You're right about that, but there's a reason why Origin draws so many people in that don't necessarily support either side and that's the quality of the game that's being shown. We could at least create something that's top Super League standard or a little bit above but it's unlikely to happen.

The problem is we've hundreds of examples of nothing much happening with mid-season internationals too. I don't think it's fair to separate a Roses origin game from the wider context of the sport in this country. It seems likely that no matter what fixture you stick in the middle of the season it's going to be poorly supported. My argument would be that potentially a Roses game has some benefits because you could have almost an entire 40-man training squad involved with at least some competitive element to the fixture, as opposed to possibles v probables which is just a training session.

The reason I don't think a return to Roses Origin is worth considering is because clubs and players don't treat a mid-season international against France seriously, they definitely didn't take the Exiles game seriously and there's little chance they'd take any other type of fixture seriously, so there's never any chance of any concept getting off the ground, including a full international.

Edited April 24, 2023 by EagleEyePie

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

12 hours ago, lucky 7 said:

Nice try, but no cigar

Very selective of you to ignore the attendance for the first game.

Never denied there was more at the other game.....the point is that it was not popular enough to get 2000 in Sydney .....it's now a massive sell out of giant stadiums 

[The Future is League]

On 23/04/2023 at 19:08, Damien said:

Build it up and 5 year approach? We played this fixture for nearly a century. Its not like it hasn't been tried but the interest just isn't there.

Exactly. It's past his sell by date

[idrewthehaggis]

8 hours ago, glossop saint said:

I like the idea of an academy/junior level region/county tournament. I would like to think that having places like London, Wales, regions of France playing could give some of their promising players more exposure and a chance of a place at a more established club.

I don't think that there is enough interest in any county (with the possible but I still think unlikely exception of Yorkshire) at senior level to make it financially viable. And that is before you consider other reasons not to do it.

If common sense took over we wou;d have regional academies and thus Roses games by default.

[Mojo]

Imagine a country hosting the next world cup not taking a international game serious. What was the point of having 2 French SL teams to develop French players when they won't even release their top players to represent there national team? I won't be surprised if this will be the last England vs France mid test game.

[Harry Stottle]

On 23/04/2023 at 12:58, Gerrumonside ref said:

England players need some decent high calibre games in between World Cups.

I attended L vs Y games and have always enjoyed the general rivalry as a proud Lancastrian (it was weird wanting Wigan players to do well!).

I’m in the minority I know and it might not work, but I would rather watch L vs Y as a concept than a decidedly one sided European Cup with England wiping the floor with everyone.

It would need buy in though to be a commercial success and I accept that there’s a way to go to achieve that.

 

 

You are most certainly correct, nearly all the best Rugby League player's (not all) from the European continent are natives from the old Lancashire and Yorkshire counties, it is a no brainer that if we want the best competitive representative games these fixtures should be reinstated.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, gingerjon said:

It is. But it’s also the reason why we won’t be able to replicate State of Origin here.

There have to be some people who would back the last minute county win over the club win for the format to stand a chance.

And you know that for a fact that members of NRL clubs would sooner see their State win the Origin series, than their club win the Grand Final?

Edit, read further down the thread and seen this question has been addressed.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Mojo said:

Imagine a country hosting the next world cup not taking a international game serious. What was the point of having 2 French SL teams to develop French players when they won't even release their top players to represent there national team? I won't be surprised if this will be the last England vs France mid test game.

Or put another way, what benefit does England gain from these French fixtures, there are many people on this thread siting that Rose's intercounty fixtures are an antiquated format and should be consigned to history, I will ask those same people how is that any different from the Englans v France fixtures, they are no more competitive now than prior to 2006.

[RP London]

The more players pulling out of the England v France match the more people will call for a Roses match or something other than playing France, yet we would see the same "pull outs" no matter what because some are injuries and some are suspensions and some are clubs not wanting to risk players. 

Whatever we do needs to cover 2 things:

1. it needs to give the players a step up in intensity so that when they do play the big boys of world International RL they are more used to that step up. 

2. it needs to be taken seriously by the clubs because it also needs to be something that appeals to sports fans outside of the heartlands and outside of RL. "internationals" can do that as internationals always have some form of prestige about them and people tend to have a dog in the fight, but something unique can work too.. it can be intriguing for people and as long as there is a reason to support one side over the other (and the Roses can do this, which is what you don't get from a probable v possible match) then it can draw people in. 

Whatever is decided upon needs clubs to buy in (or be forced) to take it seriously as they have to understand that its about growing the appeal of the game to more its not just about point 1 but point 2 is massive for drawing more money into the game as a whole. If we don't take the game seriously as a sport then why should anyone take it seriously from TV companies to the man on the street. It also has to be stuck with and built.

A choice needs to be made for next year really, stick with a mid season international v France or go with something else (and I don't see a combined nations team being the way forward, its not an international and I dont think it is unique enough to capture the imagination). But from next season onwards it has to be stuck with and developed.. this one against France looks like it could be yet another damp squib (i hope not though as would love it to work)

[Tommygilf]

They do Roses matches at Youth/academy level iirc

[Barley Mow]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They do Roses matches at Youth/academy level iirc

Yes. And women's matches too (at least until the last year or so). Plus PDRL

Edited April 25, 2023 by Barley Mow