Roses series

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

This is the thing that nags at me - the roses rivalry works in the case you mention so clearly there's enough people left who still have a connection with the county identities. So why not in RL?

Perhaps, as gingerjon alludes to in his post, because there's no (mass spectator) club game sitting below the cricket counties so the counties serve that purpose too?

It only really works in cricket and has only really become a big enough deal to count thanks to T20. It also helps that Yorkshire have a history of being a team that everyone, not just Lancashire, really enjoy seeing lose.

The equivalent to the Roses in cricket would really be the Northern Superchargers versus Manchester Thunder (despite the name the latter are meant to also represent Cumbria and Cheshire, the former Northumberland and Durham).

Does that mean more or less than a Yorks-Lancs match?

And what can that teach us about why Yorks-Lancs in league might not get people so passionate as Leeds v Wigan.

[OnStrike]

7 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I get the impression that being from Lancashire just isn’t as tribal as Yorkshire?

 

how often do you hear ‘lancashire’ being shouted at games? ‘Yorkshire’ gets chanted all the time.

Yes that was mentioned on the podcast (by the Lancastrian presenter Dave Woods). Kevin Jones stoutly refuted this however and claimed there was a Lancashire identity 

[GUBRATS]

57 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Around the world there is, pretty much, one example of an origin style series 'working'.

That is, a representative 'test' series that sits above club sides but below national sides which draws enough viewers, sponsors etc and which the players commit to without question.

The problem for rugby league in this country is that the one that works is in rugby league in Australia.

And so we have far too many people believing that it is replicable because it's rugby league - rather than realising it most likely isn't because pretty much none of the circumstances that made State of Origin work apply to England.

Evidence that sports culture doesn't always transfer 

[Ackroman]

The original war of the roses affected the whole country, the House of York v the House of Lancaster. There's a narrative there if you want it.

You could even include France and the other home nations because there's even an historical context there.

Lets face it, the Aussies will ring fence any meaningful opposition into a 4 nations competition down under, so we need to do something to remain competitive in a world cup.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Ackroman

[Jughead]

2 hours ago, OnStrike said:

Fair enough, I think everyone is agreed on the importance of internationals. If we're not going to get them regularly though...

 

We don’t waste time, finance and resources on an outdated, unwanted fixture with no relevance to the sport in the 21st century. Yes, I agree. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

England players need some decent high calibre games in between World Cups.

I attended L vs Y games and have always enjoyed the general rivalry as a proud Lancastrian (it was weird wanting Wigan players to do well!).

I’m in the minority I know and it might not work, but I would rather watch L vs Y as a concept than a decidedly one sided European Cup with England wiping the floor with everyone.

It would need buy in though to be a commercial success and I accept that there’s a way to go to achieve that.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[OnStrike]

23 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

You could even include France and the other home nations because there's even an historical context there.

 

Good idea

[Jughead]

This just keeps getting worse. Inviting a proper international team to it, too but they’re not good enough to play England. I’ve no idea what’s in the water in the local areas of some on here.

If we want to attempt to be remotely relevant in a new world, making our footprint small by having Yorkshire vs Lancashire, a county that doesn’t have any pro teams within it, is exactly the way to not go about relevance.

There’s enough nations now to create meaningful and interesting games with Samoa, Tonga, PNG, Fiji, NZ, Australia, Lebanon and to a lesser extent Cook Islands and France. There’s ten nations there to create fixtures and narratives with. Some will be up for it, some will have other tournaments and games lined up but I’m not accepting that England cannot get fixtures and that counties that barely exist playing each other is a better alternative.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

The last game was 20 years ago.  The RL landscape has now changed.

The vote taken to support IMG’s ‘Reimagining the Game’ MAY be a catalyst to commit to a long term approach at some point to grow a rep game series.

Or the alternative is to just play France once per year (I am referring to games during the SL season and not to any international window at the end of the season).

The landscape hasn't changed regarding any Lancashire v Yorkshire game and it is quite obvious many aren't interested in it.

[OnStrike]

12 minutes ago, Jughead said:

but I’m not accepting that England cannot get fixtures 

You may not accept if but it looks like that is what’s happening doesn’t it? Hopefully I'm wrong of course...

[Gerrumonside ref]

23 minutes ago, Jughead said:

This just keeps getting worse. Inviting a proper international team to it, too but they’re not good enough to play England. I’ve no idea what’s in the water in the local areas of some on here.

If we want to attempt to be remotely relevant in a new world, making our footprint small by having Yorkshire vs Lancashire, a county that doesn’t have any pro teams within it, is exactly the way to not go about relevance.

There’s enough nations now to create meaningful and interesting games with Samoa, Tonga, PNG, Fiji, NZ, Australia, Lebanon and to a lesser extent Cook Islands and France. There’s ten nations there to create fixtures and narratives with. Some will be up for it, some will have other tournaments and games lined up but I’m not accepting that England cannot get fixtures and that counties that barely exist playing each other is a better alternative.

Of all the teams you mention how many would require players to get the release from their NRL employers to come half way around the world?

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[Tommygilf]

The RFL reckon £15 tickets for a double header at Warrington (c15k max capacity) is the max for England mid season the year following a World Cup - what is the potential for Yorkshire vs Lancashire?

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

The RFL reckon £15 tickets for a double header at Warrington (c15k max capacity) is the max for England mid season the year following a World Cup - what is the potential for Yorkshire vs Lancashire?

Arguably L vs Y would be a closer encounter than watching England paste France in England which has been the historical norm for quite some time.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Arguably L vs Y would be a closer encounter than watching England paste France in England which has been the historical norm for quite some time.

But commercially, how many people go to watch? What size venues are we looking at? 

York and Salford?

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

But commercially, how many people go to watch? What size venues are we looking at? 

York and Salford?

I’m not sure and I understand the point you’re making about buy-in which I have made myself earlier in the thread.

England are in a bad place with only France (a) at this time likely to present any kind of test if the NRL continues it’s stranglehold on the sport.

In an ideal world, England are playing regular test matches against strong test playing nations to improve our standard, but this isn’t where we are at which is why concepts like the Roses will always be knocked around.

[Jughead]

27 minutes ago, OnStrike said:

You may not accept if but it looks like that is what’s happening doesn’t it? Hopefully I'm wrong of course...

No, there’s a series at the end of the year. 

20 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Of all the teams you mention how many would require players to get the release from their NRL employers to come half way around the world?

 

Given there’s a series at the end of the year and New Zealand have come over numerous times, it really doesn’t matter as they’ll come. 

[JM2010]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

No, there’s a series at the end of the year. 

Given there’s a series at the end of the year and New Zealand have come over numerous times, it really doesn’t matter as they’ll come. 

Who are we playing?

[gingerjon]

27 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The RFL reckon £15 tickets for a double header at Warrington (c15k max capacity) is the max for England mid season the year following a World Cup - what is the potential for Yorkshire vs Lancashire?

A Yorkshire v Lancashire triple header of women's, men's and PDRL starting at 1pm on a Friday so the men can kick off at 7.45?

Yours for a tenner. A fiver with code CHEAPSKATE for a limited time.

[Barry Badrinath]

3 hours ago, Futtocks said:

What happened to the "War of the Roses" concept was that people lost interest, crowds dwindled beyond anything that made financial sense for the fixture and clubs became more and more reluctant to release their top players.

Then it was revived ten years later as the "County of Origin" series and limped on in the face of mass indifference 'til the last game in 2003.

I was at a fans do just after the last one(I think) where Cullen was coaching Lancashire, Paul Derbyshire (RIP) told us that cull took it very seriously and was embarrassed that result was on his record as a coach, however the players at the time weren't bothered and were substituting themselves during the game.

 

Thats pretty unheard of in our sport.

[Ackroman]

13 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Who are we playing?

Exactly. If there's a 4 nations down under we're going to have to play with ourselves (no pun intended).

[Superb Chops]

War of the Roses could be a success if IMG are effective in reinvigorating the sport. Especially after all the fuss that was made about defeated Yorkie leader Richard III being dug up from underneath a car park in Leicestershire. 

A Lancs Triumphant Tudors vs Yorks-Princes'-Killing-Hunchbacks billing does have impact and historical gravitas. 

Maybe get Lucy Worsley on TV presenting duties with Mark Chapman? 

[gingerjon]

22 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

I was at a fans do just after the last one(I think) where Cullen was coaching Lancashire, Paul Derbyshire (RIP) told us that cull took it very seriously and was embarrassed that result was on his record as a coach, however the players at the time weren't bothered and were substituting themselves during the game.

 

Thats pretty unheard of in our sport.

My memory was that the interest wasn't bad for the latest incarnation (20 years ago?) but that it was obvious that players were not invested in winning or losing particularly much - or at least it didn't feel that way. Not that they weren't trying but that it didn't matter at the end of the day.

And that then was reflected in format tinkering and lower crowds.

[JonM]

3 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

I get the impression that being from Lancashire just isn’t as tribal as Yorkshire?

 

how often do you hear ‘lancashire’ being shouted at games? ‘Yorkshire’ gets chanted all the time.

I think the rivalry between Liverpool and Manchester within "Lancashire" is way, way more important in the north west than any rivalry with Yorkshire. Anyone born in the last 50 years is much more likely to describe themselves as being from Merseyside, Cheshire, Greater Manchester or Cumbria, or just the northwest. Someone from say Leeds or Sheffield introducing themselves down south might say they're from Yorkshire. I would never expect to hear someone from the north west say that they were from Lancashire unless they were from somewhere to the north of the RL playing towns. I rarely see or hear Liverpool and/or Manchester being described as cities in Lancashire in the media.

The parts of Lancashire where you're most likely to get people identifying with a rivalry against Yorkshire are around Burnley - and that's why cricket rather than RL is the vehicle for that rivalry. Scousers v Woolybacks would probably get way more interest in the bit of Lancashire I grew up in.

[Futtocks]

We'd normally get a bunch of regulars in a central London pub for a televised match.

I watched the last Roses match there in the company of the barman (Warrington lad) who had to be there because of his job and... nobody else.

I left early in the second half, when it was clear that 1.it was going to be a bad one-sided flogging and 2.the players (on both sides) didn't seem very interested. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Futtocks

[Madrileño]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

A Yorkshire v Lancashire triple header of women's, men's and PDRL starting at 1pm on a Friday so the men can kick off at 7.45?

Yours for a tenner. A fiver with code CHEAPSKATE for a limited time.

Stand by for a thread appearing on TotalRL with people complaining about the ticket prices.....