Roses series

[Mojo]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Or put another way, what benefit does England gain from these French fixtures, there are many people on this thread siting that Rose's intercounty fixtures are an antiquated format and should be consigned to history, I will ask those same people how is that any different from the Englans v France fixtures, they are no more competitive now than prior to 2006.

I agree on you on some part but England and France needs to come together and agree to play there best teams every time. Who does the game more harm? Top players pulling out and not taking it seriously or both full strength teams and England winning by 70pts? More fans would turn up to watch 2 full strength sides over a team of nobodies. England needs competition in the northern hemisphere. Some of the blame has to be on players to actually take it seriously and say no to the clubs. Nrl used to do this to the island team and now they have no say on it anymore because the players have told them to go shove it. RL needs a strong England and France teams

[gingerjon]

37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They do Roses matches at Youth/academy level iirc

Community game has them as well, I believe.

I'd find some results on the RFL website but, y'know, the RFL website is a bit (very) bobbins.

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Community game has them as well, I believe.

I'd find some results on the RFL website but, y'know, the RFL website is a bit (very) bobbins.

Indeed, the narrative that playing these at under age level will somehow filter down to the professional game just isn't true. As you and Tommy state we have played Roses matches at underage level for as long as I've followed the game and every professional player will have come through this system as is.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Mojo said:

I agree on you on some part but England and France needs to come together and agree to play there best teams every time. Who does the game more harm? Top players pulling out and not taking it seriously or both full strength teams and England winning by 70pts? More fans would turn up to watch 2 full strength sides over a team of nobodies. England needs competition in the northern hemisphere. Some of the blame has to be on players to actually take it seriously and say no to the clubs. Nrl used to do this to the island team and now they have no say on it anymore because the players have told them to go shove it. RL needs a strong England and France teams

That is the moot point in bold, and when we talk about the 'Full England Team" which is inclusive of our lads plying their trade in Aus we ain't going to get it in the Northern Hemisphere, each and every year we should arrange and go on tour to visit our southern cousins having a running schedule in place so we know what we are always doing 5 years hence, but hopefully any of the teams down under can interupt that schedule with tours here.

[tim2]

On 24/04/2023 at 12:48, RP London said:

Can we have Yorkshire vs the rest and when we win can just show that we are the greatest as even combined counties cant beat the might of white! (rose that is... could sound very bad otherwise!)

Hating Yorkshire and wanting them to lose is something I can fully get behind.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Even if this fixture was reignited, right now and for the foreseeable few years, I couldn't see past the red roses winning by an absolute canter - if all SL players were available. I've not gone to the effort of doing mock up teams, but just off the top of my head west of the Pennines has so much more strength and depth in the halves/full-back positions. 

[JonM]

37 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Even if this fixture was reignited, right now and for the foreseeable few years, I couldn't see past the red roses winning by an absolute canter

You have to factor in the likelihood that most of the selected Lancashire squad will pick up a minor injury which will cause them to miss the game but be able to play for their club the following weekend. Also that for those who don't get a note from their mum, avoiding injury will be top priority. 

[Mathius Hellwege]

after the desaster with the mid-year international I am now all in for a good Origin copy in the NH

[JM2010]

3 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

after the desaster with the mid-year international I am now all in for a good Origin copy in the NH

Me too tbh. Just find a way of getting the best English SL players to face off against each other. 
Yorkshire vs Lancashire/NW would be a good game. 
Cumbria could play London/SE at the same time

[headtackle]

North v South would probably have more marketing appeal 

Selection criteria would have to be place of birth with perhaps a generous grandparenting rule

Bridging the North South divide etc etc would give the marketeers plenty to go on. If the South were to win could spark more interest and support the clubs down there

[Mathius Hellwege]

Occitania?

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

after the desaster with the mid-year international I am now all in for a good Origin copy in the NH

Yes. The mid season international won't happen again - for six years anyway - and we will have a new exciting concept based on the half remembered memories of the latest groupthink bunch at the RFL/rugby league media overlap set.

It's been twenty years since Yorks-Lancs so it'll be that.

[Futtocks]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Yes. The mid season international won't happen again - for six years anyway - and we will have a new exciting concept based on the half remembered memories of the latest groupthink bunch at the RFL/rugby league media overlap set.

It's been twenty years since Yorks-Lancs so it'll be that.

The announcement will please the demographic who hearken back to a fondly misremembered past. Those that are still alive, that is. It's Truss v Sunak all over again, only this time in the North!

The next generation of potential fans, especially the ones West of the Pennines, will be somewhat bemused to find out they're from "Lanc-ish-shire".

And all of us will be underwhelmed with the actual event, once the club chairmen almost inevitably pull rank regarding player availability.

[DI Keith Fowler]

Just think of what Oxen could do with it though. Two training ranges and two home shirts a year. In addition to two England shirts and god knows how many training ranges for the national side. The Oxen CEO will be rubbing his thighs at the prospect.

[RP London]

3 hours ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Just think of what Oxen could do with it though. Two training ranges and two home shirts a year. In addition to two England shirts and god knows how many training ranges for the national side. The Oxen CEO will be rubbing his thighs at the prospect.

Two... Two? Best of 3 series that's at least 6 but if they get the designs right they can get the hoemshirts to clash at least once.. so that's another 1 - 2 ranges plus one for charity

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, RP London said:

Two... Two? Best of 3 series that's at least 6 but if they get the designs right they can get the hoemshirts to clash at least once.. so that's another 1 - 2 ranges plus one for charity

Heritage shirts - the 1980s look with the sponsor missing - and both Lancashire and Yorkshire Day training ranges.

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Heritage shirts - the 1980s look with the sponsor missing - and both Lancashire and Yorkshire Day training ranges.

It's the gift that keeps on giving..  

[Jughead]

I’m vehemently against the return of LvY and the Roses, it means nothing to me, I don’t see that there is demand for such a fixture and I don’t see why it’s actually any better than the alternative, an England international.

On England, I don’t see the point of a mid-season international. There’s just shy of 30% of the 24-man World Cup 2021 squad that are immediately unavailable for a mid-season international through location. That number is going to potentially grow further with at least two of the current 40-man training squad swapping England for Australia come this winter and ongoing rumours that players like Jack Welsby and Lewis Dodd are courted by clubs in Australia, with the latter getting an Australian agent. If more and more players are swapping Huddersfield, Wigan or wherever for Sydney, what’s the point of a mid-season international anyway? You’re already devaluing the fixture when half your proper side are sat in coffee shops in Bondi and you’re picking others to fill in. That’s before you then even address domestic based players pulling out and clubs pulling players out of the international game. I don’t need to go on about it too much but many believe that there are too many Super League games and a largely meaningless international fixture slammed somewhere in the middle is deemed not worth the risk of potential injury when we’re playing twenty-seven weekly rounds before play-offs and cup games. IMG have recognised it, too, and have suggested losing loop games in their proposals. All of the above sanitises the mid-season international and fans of the game don’t take much notice of it which also results in the bargain basement pricing structure the game has been dogged by for years. 

I’m not sure any of the issues above with England v France or England v Exiles are solved by Lancashire v Yorkshire. Hypothetically, If you’re Daryl Powell and Paul Rowley and you get the Yorkshire and Lancashire Head Coach positions respectively, you can’t tell me that you don’t want Dom Young, Tom Burgess, Herbie Farnworth, Elliott Whitehead, John Bateman, Luke Thompson etc in your sides. I know they can’t have those players but again, the player pool is immediately diminished by unavailability. Clubs and players do not particularly want to turn out for one England game, albeit a friendly, how on earth are they going to be convinced to turn out three times for a county that for many of the Lancashire players, they’ve never lived in and weren’t born in?

I don’t think the game here is suited for any kind of representative game(s) in the current circumstances and I don’t think we should really persist with something that’s broken. 

[Damien]

On 25/04/2023 at 09:51, Tommygilf said:

They do Roses matches at Youth/academy level iirc

Speaking of which:

Lancashire took a 1-0 lead in the 2023 Academy Origin series with an impressive 42-20 victory over Yorkshire in Castleford, with six Warriors involved across the two teams.

With their matchday 17 comprising eight Saints, four Wolves and five Wigan Warriors, the visitors ran in four tries in each half.

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2023/04/28/lancashire-open-origin-with-win/

[GUBRATS]

On 26/04/2023 at 10:20, Jughead said:

I’m vehemently against the return of LvY and the Roses, it means nothing to me, I don’t see that there is demand for such a fixture and I don’t see why it’s actually any better than the alternative, an England international.

On England, I don’t see the point of a mid-season international. There’s just shy of 30% of the 24-man World Cup 2021 squad that are immediately unavailable for a mid-season international through location. That number is going to potentially grow further with at least two of the current 40-man training squad swapping England for Australia come this winter and ongoing rumours that players like Jack Welsby and Lewis Dodd are courted by clubs in Australia, with the latter getting an Australian agent. If more and more players are swapping Huddersfield, Wigan or wherever for Sydney, what’s the point of a mid-season international anyway? You’re already devaluing the fixture when half your proper side are sat in coffee shops in Bondi and you’re picking others to fill in. That’s before you then even address domestic based players pulling out and clubs pulling players out of the international game. I don’t need to go on about it too much but many believe that there are too many Super League games and a largely meaningless international fixture slammed somewhere in the middle is deemed not worth the risk of potential injury when we’re playing twenty-seven weekly rounds before play-offs and cup games. IMG have recognised it, too, and have suggested losing loop games in their proposals. All of the above sanitises the mid-season international and fans of the game don’t take much notice of it which also results in the bargain basement pricing structure the game has been dogged by for years. 

I’m not sure any of the issues above with England v France or England v Exiles are solved by Lancashire v Yorkshire. Hypothetically, If you’re Daryl Powell and Paul Rowley and you get the Yorkshire and Lancashire Head Coach positions respectively, you can’t tell me that you don’t want Dom Young, Tom Burgess, Herbie Farnworth, Elliott Whitehead, John Bateman, Luke Thompson etc in your sides. I know they can’t have those players but again, the player pool is immediately diminished by unavailability. Clubs and players do not particularly want to turn out for one England game, albeit a friendly, how on earth are they going to be convinced to turn out three times for a county that for many of the Lancashire players, they’ve never lived in and weren’t born in?

I don’t think the game here is suited for any kind of representative game(s) in the current circumstances and I don’t think we should really persist with something that’s broken. 

Are you good at holding your breath ? 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 26/04/2023 at 10:20, Jughead said:

I’m vehemently against the return of LvY and the Roses, it means nothing to me, I don’t see that there is demand for such a fixture and I don’t see why it’s actually any better than the alternative, an England international.

On England, I don’t see the point of a mid-season international. There’s just shy of 30% of the 24-man World Cup 2021 squad that are immediately unavailable for a mid-season international through location. That number is going to potentially grow further with at least two of the current 40-man training squad swapping England for Australia come this winter and ongoing rumours that players like Jack Welsby and Lewis Dodd are courted by clubs in Australia, with the latter getting an Australian agent. If more and more players are swapping Huddersfield, Wigan or wherever for Sydney, what’s the point of a mid-season international anyway? You’re already devaluing the fixture when half your proper side are sat in coffee shops in Bondi and you’re picking others to fill in. That’s before you then even address domestic based players pulling out and clubs pulling players out of the international game. I don’t need to go on about it too much but many believe that there are too many Super League games and a largely meaningless international fixture slammed somewhere in the middle is deemed not worth the risk of potential injury when we’re playing twenty-seven weekly rounds before play-offs and cup games. IMG have recognised it, too, and have suggested losing loop games in their proposals. All of the above sanitises the mid-season international and fans of the game don’t take much notice of it which also results in the bargain basement pricing structure the game has been dogged by for years. 

I’m not sure any of the issues above with England v France or England v Exiles are solved by Lancashire v Yorkshire. Hypothetically, If you’re Daryl Powell and Paul Rowley and you get the Yorkshire and Lancashire Head Coach positions respectively, you can’t tell me that you don’t want Dom Young, Tom Burgess, Herbie Farnworth, Elliott Whitehead, John Bateman, Luke Thompson etc in your sides. I know they can’t have those players but again, the player pool is immediately diminished by unavailability. Clubs and players do not particularly want to turn out for one England game, albeit a friendly, how on earth are they going to be convinced to turn out three times for a county that for many of the Lancashire players, they’ve never lived in and weren’t born in?

I don’t think the game here is suited for any kind of representative game(s) in the current circumstances and I don’t think we should really persist with something that’s broken. 

Jesus wept ......let's all give up and watch union 

[Jughead]

7 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Jesus wept ......let's all give up and watch union 

Off you go then. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Off you go then. 

Not me you! Don't you think it's possible to do something / build something even though it won't be an instant success?

[Jughead]

2 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Not me you! Don't you think it's possible to do something / build something even though it won't be an instant success?

*LONG POST WARNING*

I think it is entirely possible, of course it is, however, the mid-season rugby league representative/international fixture in England has been going for the best part of seventeen years, in one guise or another and in my opinion, there comes a point where the game needs to stop flogging the proverbial dead horse.

Attendances:

2006 - Great Britain 46-14 New Zealand, Knowsley Road, St Helens. Att: 10,103

2007 - Great Britain 42-14 France, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 12,685

2010 - England 60-6 France, Leigh Sports Village, Leigh. Att: 7,951

2011 - England 12-16 Exiles, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 14,174

2012 - England 18-10 Exiles, Langtree Park, St Helens. Att: 11,083

2012 - England 20-32 Exiles, John Smith's Stadium, Huddersfield. Att: 7,865

2013 - England 30-10 Exiles, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 7,926

2021 - England 24-26 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 4,000*

2022 - England 18-4 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 9,393.

The initial attendances for Great Britain and then the first couple of England-Exiles games were reasonable and fairly positive but that aside, four figure crowds for any England home game is really poor. Granted, the 2021 fixture had Covid restrictions and that's not really one I'm picking out for any kind of criticism given the circumstances but the rest of the games from the above list are really poor crowds. I just think that looking at those attendances, there just isn't the interest within the game's existing fanbase for such fixtures. You could say that England should play France across the channel and I understand that argument but I think England need to have a number of games in England each year and brushing the problem under the carpet to forget about it and just passing it on to the French Federation isn't necessarily the right approach. There have been good five figure crowds in the South of France and they're impressive attendances and annual games in France wouldn't be a bad thing. 

You could also say that the venues listed above that have hosted England fixtures haven't been ambitious enough and we would have been better going to Kingston Park, the new York ground or wherever. After pretty poor crowds at places like Warrington and Leigh for England games previously, it's likely to be deemed too much of a risk to take a mid-season friendly between England and France or England and the Combined Nations teams away from the heartlands given that lack of interest within the game's traditional areas and a crowd of seven to ten thousand within the heartlands is suitable enough for these kind of fixtures. I think the same is probably the case for the England v Tonga series that is coming this winter. We've gone away from some venues we've used for England and Great Britain games before in places like Elland Road, the DW Stadium and the KC and Sunshine Band Stadium in Hull to play it relatively safe at Headingley, the smoke free E-Cig Super Dome and Hudersfield where I think the game will be happy with 50,000 through the turnstiles at those three venues. 

People just aren't that interested in friendlies, no matter how much you dress them up as tests. You see a lack of interest in other sports, football have significantly reduced the amount of friendlies at international level, so its quite a stretch to expect rugby league fans to be really interested in friendlies at international level, more so when they're plonked randomly through the domestic season and just as Super League clubs enter the Challenge Cup, which as we know are non-season ticketed fixtures, which again, aren't that well supported either.

As I said in my original post, seven of the twenty-four man World Cup 2021 squad from last year are immediately unavailable purely down to location and being in Australia. They're typically England's big name players. Of this year's 40 man training squad, which again doesn't include the NRL contingent, at least two of those won't be plying their trade in the United Kingdom or France next year and that's without accounting for the persistent rumours of Jack Welsby and Lewis Dodd being lured to Australia or New Zealand in the future, with the latter signing up with an Australian based agent. You could theoretically have half of your eighteen man squad against Tonga this autumn immediately unavailable for any mid-season international in 2024. From England's last fixture, the World Cup semi-final defeat, there are just two of the seventeen who played against Samoa who are in Shaun Wane's nineteen man squad for today's game. There are always going to be some missing through injury, retirement and no longer being selected but fifteen completely different players is vastly dramatic. I don't blame Shaun Wane for that, he can only pick who is available. 

There's been withdrawals from both nations ahead of this game and the threat of a number of Catalans Dragons and Toulouse players withdrawing. I don't blame anyone for it, I completely understand it and I'm pleased that the majority of the Saints players within the England team are on sun loungers in the Canaries and Balearics rather than going through the motions in a meaningless friendly in front of a four figure crowd at Warrington. Given the two options, its little wonder why some don't want to risk injury and more fatigue for a game that means nothing. I'm of the opinion that twenty-seven weekly rounds before any involvement in the play-offs and Challenge Cup is too much at Super League level. I think we go through the motions for parts of the Super League season and some games have little effect on the competition that they're just money making events for the chairmen who say they must have x games a year. It seems that IMG share some of my feelings as they've suggested losing loop fixtures moving forwards. 

I think that player availability, or lack of, therefore effects the attendance and it's a bit of a vicious cycle that isn't easy to beat. Realistically, the majority of those who play for England this evening are unlikely to play two or more games against Tonga this autumn and without many of England's first choice players in a meaningless fixture against a nation that even this B team will beat comfortably, it's not appetising for fans of the game within the heartlands to get out and attend this evening and so the crowd will likely be be four figures and not really that appealing to broadcasters or sponsors, either. 

As I said at the outset, there comes a point where you have to stop flogging the proverbial dead horse and I think we are at that point right now under the circumstances that we have domestically with twenty-seven weekly rounds of Super League. I don't see evidence that a mid-season international or representative game is particularly well supported by spectators or players themselves given the crowds attending and the players themselves. We go on about making our players household names but lets be honest, Jez Litten or Morgan Smithies aren't ever going to be that and players like Tommy Makinson (alright, a bit old now but someone who over the last ten years should have been one of the faces of the sport) and Elliot Whitehead sat on a beach in Lanzarote or going about his everyday life and playing games for Canberra Raiders respectively aren't going to be either when they're unavailable for England games for varying reasons. 

IMG are coming in and are "reimagining" rugby league and the mid-season international/representative game needs every bit reimagined as Super League does but for the short-term at least, I personally would stop the flogging of this dead horse. I think there's a different discussion that this leads on to about how do IMG reimagine a friendly against France to create an event that is well attended both onfield and in the stands. 

[Mumby Magic]

On 23/04/2023 at 16:09, Futtocks said:

Internationals are what get people who aren't already RL fans interested in and talking about the game. It usually generates more column inches (positive ones, anyway) than club games, which can often get zero coverage per week in some national publications and sports news broadcasts.

Exactly. How can we koan there's no Internationals then dismiss an International for England vs Concocted XIII?