Roses series

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

*LONG POST WARNING*

I think it is entirely possible, of course it is, however, the mid-season rugby league representative/international fixture in England has been going for the best part of seventeen years, in one guise or another and in my opinion, there comes a point where the game needs to stop flogging the proverbial dead horse.

Attendances:

2006 - Great Britain 46-14 New Zealand, Knowsley Road, St Helens. Att: 10,103

2007 - Great Britain 42-14 France, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 12,685

2010 - England 60-6 France, Leigh Sports Village, Leigh. Att: 7,951

2011 - England 12-16 Exiles, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 14,174

2012 - England 18-10 Exiles, Langtree Park, St Helens. Att: 11,083

2012 - England 20-32 Exiles, John Smith's Stadium, Huddersfield. Att: 7,865

2013 - England 30-10 Exiles, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 7,926

2021 - England 24-26 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 4,000*

2022 - England 18-4 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 9,393.

The initial attendances for Great Britain and then the first couple of England-Exiles games were reasonable and fairly positive but that aside, four figure crowds for any England home game is really poor. Granted, the 2021 fixture had Covid restrictions and that's not really one I'm picking out for any kind of criticism given the circumstances but the rest of the games from the above list are really poor crowds. I just think that looking at those attendances, there just isn't the interest within the game's existing fanbase for such fixtures. You could say that England should play France across the channel and I understand that argument but I think England need to have a number of games in England each year and brushing the problem under the carpet to forget about it and just passing it on to the French Federation isn't necessarily the right approach. There have been good five figure crowds in the South of France and they're impressive attendances and annual games in France wouldn't be a bad thing. 

You could also say that the venues listed above that have hosted England fixtures haven't been ambitious enough and we would have been better going to Kingston Park, the new York ground or wherever. After pretty poor crowds at places like Warrington and Leigh for England games previously, it's likely to be deemed too much of a risk to take a mid-season friendly between England and France or England and the Combined Nations teams away from the heartlands given that lack of interest within the game's traditional areas and a crowd of seven to ten thousand within the heartlands is suitable enough for these kind of fixtures. I think the same is probably the case for the England v Tonga series that is coming this winter. We've gone away from some venues we've used for England and Great Britain games before in places like Elland Road, the DW Stadium and the KC and Sunshine Band Stadium in Hull to play it relatively safe at Headingley, the smoke free E-Cig Super Dome and Hudersfield where I think the game will be happy with 50,000 through the turnstiles at those three venues. 

People just aren't that interested in friendlies, no matter how much you dress them up as tests. You see a lack of interest in other sports, football have significantly reduced the amount of friendlies at international level, so its quite a stretch to expect rugby league fans to be really interested in friendlies at international level, more so when they're plonked randomly through the domestic season and just as Super League clubs enter the Challenge Cup, which as we know are non-season ticketed fixtures, which again, aren't that well supported either.

As I said in my original post, seven of the twenty-four man World Cup 2021 squad from last year are immediately unavailable purely down to location and being in Australia. They're typically England's big name players. Of this year's 40 man training squad, which again doesn't include the NRL contingent, at least two of those won't be plying their trade in the United Kingdom or France next year and that's without accounting for the persistent rumours of Jack Welsby and Lewis Dodd being lured to Australia or New Zealand in the future, with the latter signing up with an Australian based agent. You could theoretically have half of your eighteen man squad against Tonga this autumn immediately unavailable for any mid-season international in 2024. From England's last fixture, the World Cup semi-final defeat, there are just two of the seventeen who played against Samoa who are in Shaun Wane's nineteen man squad for today's game. There are always going to be some missing through injury, retirement and no longer being selected but fifteen completely different players is vastly dramatic. I don't blame Shaun Wane for that, he can only pick who is available. 

There's been withdrawals from both nations ahead of this game and the threat of a number of Catalans Dragons and Toulouse players withdrawing. I don't blame anyone for it, I completely understand it and I'm pleased that the majority of the Saints players within the England team are on sun loungers in the Canaries and Balearics rather than going through the motions in a meaningless friendly in front of a four figure crowd at Warrington. Given the two options, its little wonder why some don't want to risk injury and more fatigue for a game that means nothing. I'm of the opinion that twenty-seven weekly rounds before any involvement in the play-offs and Challenge Cup is too much at Super League level. I think we go through the motions for parts of the Super League season and some games have little effect on the competition that they're just money making events for the chairmen who say they must have x games a year. It seems that IMG share some of my feelings as they've suggested losing loop fixtures moving forwards. 

I think that player availability, or lack of, therefore effects the attendance and it's a bit of a vicious cycle that isn't easy to beat. Realistically, the majority of those who play for England this evening are unlikely to play two or more games against Tonga this autumn and without many of England's first choice players in a meaningless fixture against a nation that even this B team will beat comfortably, it's not appetising for fans of the game within the heartlands to get out and attend this evening and so the crowd will likely be be four figures and not really that appealing to broadcasters or sponsors, either. 

As I said at the outset, there comes a point where you have to stop flogging the proverbial dead horse and I think we are at that point right now under the circumstances that we have domestically with twenty-seven weekly rounds of Super League. I don't see evidence that a mid-season international or representative game is particularly well supported by spectators or players themselves given the crowds attending and the players themselves. We go on about making our players household names but lets be honest, Jez Litten or Morgan Smithies aren't ever going to be that and players like Tommy Makinson (alright, a bit old now but someone who over the last ten years should have been one of the faces of the sport) and Elliot Whitehead sat on a beach in Lanzarote or going about his everyday life and playing games for Canberra Raiders respectively aren't going to be either when they're unavailable for England games for varying reasons. 

IMG are coming in and are "reimagining" rugby league and the mid-season international/representative game needs every bit reimagined as Super League does but for the short-term at least, I personally would stop the flogging of this dead horse. I think there's a different discussion that this leads on to about how do IMG reimagine a friendly against France to create an event that is well attended both onfield and in the stands. 

Wow Jughead that was a long post!!!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

On 29/04/2023 at 12:15, Jughead said:

Attendances:

2006 - Great Britain 46-14 New Zealand, Knowsley Road, St Helens. Att: 10,103

2007 - Great Britain 42-14 France, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 12,685

2010 - England 60-6 France, Leigh Sports Village, Leigh. Att: 7,951

2011 - England 12-16 Exiles, Headingley, Leeds. Att: 14,174

2012 - England 18-10 Exiles, Langtree Park, St Helens. Att: 11,083

2012 - England 20-32 Exiles, John Smith's Stadium, Huddersfield. Att: 7,865

2013 - England 30-10 Exiles, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 7,926

2021 - England 24-26 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 4,000*

2022 - England 18-4 Combined Nations All Stars, Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington. Att: 9,393.

So basically, if a Roses match got around 10k (which I believe was about right for the first 4 back in the early 00s), it'd be par for the course?

A more competitive game. Less travel. Doesn't damage the credibility of the England team (or French). More players to get rep honours and see in new camps.

I still think it's worth a shot. No one is up for mid-season international friendlies. Either have fixtures linked to the end of season competition (an extended international series) or try running something different.

For those outside of the 2 regions, they could play for England Knights against anyone. An England Knights team exclusively for those outside of Yorks/Lancs would feature in far more competitive games you'd expect. Maybe France could even score!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

What would a XVII look like for Yorkshire, Lancashire and England Knights (with no Yorks/Lancs players)?

[Jughead]

9 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So basically, if a Roses match got around 10k (which I believe was about right for the first 4 back in the early 00s), it'd be par for the course?

A more competitive game. Less travel. Doesn't damage the credibility of the England team (or French). More players to get rep honours and see in new camps.

I still think it's worth a shot. No one is up for mid-season international friendlies. Either have fixtures linked to the end of season competition (an extended international series) or try running something different.

For those outside of the 2 regions, they could play for England Knights against anyone. An England Knights team exclusively for those outside of Yorks/Lancs would feature in far more competitive games you'd expect. Maybe France could even score!

It’s a shocker of an idea that alienates the majority of the country, one of the counties has no professional rugby league clubs in 2023, many of the players aren’t actually born in one of the counties, players would still pull out, there would be almost zero commercial interest and fans would not care whatsoever. Apart from all of that, it’s the best idea ever. 

[RigbyLuger]

England's union women thrashed 4 of their 5 opponents in the Six Nations. I wonder if they have the same arguements.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

13 hours ago, Jughead said:

It’s a shocker of an idea that alienates the majority of the country, 

In terms of the "rugby league population" of the country, it includes about 90%.

13 hours ago, Jughead said:

one of the counties has no professional rugby league clubs in 2023

Doesn't seem to be an issue in cricket.

13 hours ago, Jughead said:

players would still pull out

So not a negative you can use then if it's already happening. If anything, at least it gives us the chance to view a bigger range of English players.

13 hours ago, Jughead said:

there would be almost zero commercial interest

How was the commercial interest for England v France or England v Other Nationalities?

13 hours ago, Jughead said:

and fans would not care whatsoever

Great crowds for the current mid-season test, eh?

 

The mid-season test literally is serving no one.

 

They have Roses games in the women's game, academy level, community level. It's ingrained in the sport. Why we're so ashamed of our strengths I have no idea. 

[Jughead]

7 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

In terms of the "rugby league population" of the country, it includes about 90%.

Doesn't seem to be an issue in cricket.

So not a negative you can use then if it's already happening. If anything, at least it gives us the chance to view a bigger range of English players.

How was the commercial interest for England v France or England v Other Nationalities?

Great crowds for the current mid-season test, eh?

 

The mid-season test literally is serving no one.

 

They have Roses games in the women's game, academy level, community level. It's ingrained in the sport. Why we're so ashamed of our strengths I have no idea. 

1. The rugby league population couldn’t be arsed to watch England v France on their doorstep. 

2. Lancashire IS the professional club in cricket. Terrible argument.

3. Nobody attends partly because it’s Jez Litten v some lad who plays in Elite 1. 

4. Have you heard of Selco, chief?

5. The mid-season international serves nobody under a system in which we play 27 weekly rounds before play-offs and cup games. Rearranging deck chairs by playing an equally unwanted game, this time with a far smaller geographic footprint, is sheer lunacy. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

10 minutes ago, Jughead said:

1. The rugby league population couldn’t be arsed to watch England v France on their doorstep. 

2. Lancashire IS the professional club in cricket. Terrible argument.

3. Nobody attends partly because it’s Jez Litten v some lad who plays in Elite 1. 

4. Have you heard of Selco, chief?

5. The mid-season international serves nobody under a system in which we play 27 weekly rounds before play-offs and cup games. Rearranging deck chairs by playing an equally unwanted game, this time with a far smaller geographic footprint, is sheer lunacy. 

1. Because it's not a competitive match. It's a foregone conclusion. There's no rivalry. There's no prospect of it becoming an event anytime soon.

2. I assumed your argument was that the boundary had changed and the pro clubs are outside of the the boundary. Not an issue in cricket. Lancashire play in Greater Manchester.

3. Your point?

4. How much did if bring in?

5. It appears the answer is have nothing. Gotcha.

[Jughead]

18 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

1. Because it's not a competitive match. It's a foregone conclusion. There's no rivalry. There's no prospect of it becoming an event anytime soon.

2. I assumed your argument was that the boundary had changed and the pro clubs are outside of the the boundary. Not an issue in cricket. Lancashire play in Greater Manchester.

3. Your point?

4. How much did if bring in?

5. It appears the answer is have nothing. Gotcha.

So it’s now not about the quality of the players and teams on show but because there is no rivalry? Your strawman is getting worse. 

Lancashire have played where they’ve played since 1864. 

The point as I’m sure you’re aware because you’re not this dense is that third rate players playing in a meaningless friendly interests nobody. The same is the case for a tinpot Roses game that didn’t work the last time it was brought back. 

No idea. These things are never public. Strawman. 

At this point, nothing is better than devaluing the international game, the England side, the French side and just ticking a box. Once IMG reduce the amount of fixtures, which they’ve acknowledged and stated, it’s time to work out what to do to reimagine the mid-season period and international rugby league. Interest is generated massively by the international game, attendances and TV figures back that up, the way it’s done now is no good for anyone and isn’t made better by the Roses. 

[gingerjon]

I'll say it again now and will say it again in the future:

Yorkshire v Lancashire as a sporting rivalry that enough people really care about exists only in cricket.

They had a County Championship in union - maybe they still do - and no one cared.

We played Roses matches and a County Championship in league, for nearly a hundred goes, and no one cared.

It's a nice eyebrow raiser in sports where they have county association contests. I bet it's a real humdinger for the blazers in golf to guffaw about in the bar afterwards. But those are just amateur contests given a little spice. Nothing more.

So, to repeat: anyone who wants a Yorkshire-Lancashire sporting rivalry already has it taken care of. It's cricket's.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

So, to repeat: anyone who wants a Yorkshire-Lancashire sporting rivalry already has it taken care of. It's cricket's.

I don't like cricket.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

39 minutes ago, Jughead said:

So it’s now not about the quality of the players and teams on show but because there is no rivalry? Your strawman is getting worse. 

It's about several factors, but you already knew that. Twist away.

39 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Lancashire have played where they’ve played since 1864. 

But it's not in Lancashire anymore.

Wigan play in Wigan still. Saints in St Helens. Salford in Salford...

What's your point?

39 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The point as I’m sure you’re aware because you’re not this dense is that third rate players playing in a meaningless friendly interests nobody. The same is the case for a tinpot Roses game that didn’t work the last time it was brought back. 

It would tick more boxes than this international did. You're entitled to your opinion, but marketed right I think it would have interest.

39 minutes ago, Jughead said:

No idea. These things are never public. Strawman.

You brought up commercial interest! You can't call it a strawman!

39 minutes ago, Jughead said:

At this point, nothing is better than devaluing the international game, the England side, the French side and just ticking a box. Once IMG reduce the amount of fixtures, which they’ve acknowledged and stated, it’s time to work out what to do to reimagine the mid-season period and international rugby league. Interest is generated massively by the international game, attendances and TV figures back that up, the way it’s done now is no good for anyone and isn’t made better by the Roses. 

That would require cooperation of the NRL, which we don't have. I'd be all for an extended international series with mid season window. I won't hold my breath though.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I'll say it again now and will say it again in the future:

Yorkshire v Lancashire as a sporting rivalry that enough people really care about exists only in cricket.

They had a County Championship in union - maybe they still do - and no one cared.

We played Roses matches and a County Championship in league, for nearly a hundred goes, and no one cared.

It's a nice eyebrow raiser in sports where they have county association contests. I bet it's a real humdinger for the blazers in golf to guffaw about in the bar afterwards. But those are just amateur contests given a little spice. Nothing more.

So, to repeat: anyone who wants a Yorkshire-Lancashire sporting rivalry already has it taken care of. It's cricket's.

There’s a good deal of animosity between Yorkshire and Lancashire (old boundaries and new) in football that is played out in club duels.

In fact I would say it spills over sometimes to an unhealthy degree.

For certain there is already longstanding civic, cultural and sporting rivalry between two cities in East and West Lancashire that has grown and grown to the point of overtaking the L vs Y in a big way.

It manifests itself in football most prominently in our society and there is no real way for rugby league to exploit it at this time.

 

 

[RigbyLuger]

2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't like cricket.

I love it.

[Saint Toppy]

10 hours ago, gingerjon said:

So, to repeat: anyone who wants a Yorkshire-Lancashire sporting rivalry already has it taken care of. It's cricket's.

The roses matches are still going strong at Academy level - for anyone interested it was another pummeling for the white rose again at the weekend in game 1 of this years series 

[gingerjon]

20 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

The roses matches are still going strong at Academy level - for anyone interested it was another pummeling for the white rose again at the weekend in game 1 of this years series 

I think they make a lot of sense at academy level.

And, obviously, it’s nice to give the red rose some little scraps of pleasure from time to time.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

59 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

The roses matches are still going strong at Academy level - for anyone interested it was another pummeling for the white rose again at the weekend in game 1 of this years series 

In absence of any real local representative challenge, it makes great sense. Hence why I'm an advocate.

It's at community level, academy level, in the women's game, but can't have it in the pro game despite nothing really being in the way

 

Honestly, I think if the game embraced it rather than feel embarrassed about its northern roots, you could fill grounds pretty quickly.

The relative strengths of even SL based Yorks and Lancs teams would be above the French. I reckon an England Knights team minus Yorks/Lancs players would have beaten that French team.

[RP London]

I dont understand why Oxen arent pushing this... 2 more shirts to sell and one would have a good chunk of Navy blue in it (which apparently sells really really well!)

We can then have the England shirt and white red and blue and claim that its just using those colours and that would appease the "bring back GB just look at the iconic shirt" brigade... 

win win win!

[JM2010]

On 01/05/2023 at 21:29, Wellsy4HullFC said:

So basically, if a Roses match got around 10k (which I believe was about right for the first 4 back in the early 00s), it'd be par for the course?

A more competitive game. Less travel. Doesn't damage the credibility of the England team (or French). More players to get rep honours and see in new camps.

I still think it's worth a shot. No one is up for mid-season international friendlies. Either have fixtures linked to the end of season competition (an extended international series) or try running something different.

For those outside of the 2 regions, they could play for England Knights against anyone. An England Knights team exclusively for those outside of Yorks/Lancs would feature in far more competitive games you'd expect. Maybe France could even score!

Those outside the regions could play for Cumbria vs London/SE. Yorkshire vs Lancashire and Cumbria vs London/SE covers most of our playing base. 
Other regions could be added in future such as NE vs Midlands for example 

[Sports Prophet]

On 23/04/2023 at 17:04, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I've always said it would need a 5 year approach....build it up just like Aussie Origin was.......my fear is that if it wasn't an instant success they'd ditch it 

 

On 23/04/2023 at 17:08, Damien said:

Build it up and 5 year approach? We played this fixture for nearly a century. Its not like it hasn't been tried but the interest just isn't there.

Interstate RL was played for years in front of irrelevant diminished fan numbers for years before SoO came along.

Following a successful Magic weekend, is there room to add a Yorkshire v Lancashire element where possible, clubs only draw an opponent from across the Pennines? 

Alternatively, what about another centrally located event, Saturday in Lancashire and Sunday in Yorkshire. Cross Pennine fixtures, including Championship if you need to. 

Maybe something like Warriors, Saints and Widnes v Cas, Huddersfield and Fev on Saturday in Lancs. Then Leeds, Wakie and Bradford v Warrington, Leigh and Swinton.

Maybe that can be WotR for a few years to see if it builds a bit of county pride in the fans before expanding it to a representative fixture.

Just an idea.

[Damien]

4 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

Interstate RL was played for years in front of irrelevant diminished fan numbers for years before SoO came along.

Following a successful Magic weekend, is there room to add a Yorkshire v Lancashire element where possible, clubs only draw an opponent from across the Pennines? 

Alternatively, what about another centrally located event, Saturday in Lancashire and Sunday in Yorkshire. Cross Pennine fixtures, including Championship if you need to. 

Maybe something like Warriors, Saints and Widnes v Cas, Huddersfield and Fev on Saturday in Lancs. Then Leeds, Wakie and Bradford v Warrington, Leigh and Swinton.

Maybe that can be WotR for a few years to see if it builds a bit of county pride in the fans before expanding it to a representative fixture.

Just an idea.

Lancashire v Yorkshire club fixtures are the norm. They are not a big rivalry that people care about. This is just flogging a deal horse stuff in an attempt to copy Australia.

[Sports Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Lancashire v Yorkshire club fixtures are the norm. They are not a big rivalry that people care about. This is just flogging a deal horse stuff in an attempt to copy Australia.

Yeah I understand. Is there no way you think to revitalise a county rivalry between Yorks and Lancs?

It just seems the obvious route for the highest standard for an annual European representative fixture. I can’t think of anything else that I would care about.

[Anita Bath]

On 03/05/2023 at 18:12, gingerjon said:

I think they make a lot of sense at academy level.

And, obviously, it’s nice to give the red rose some little scraps of pleasure from time to time.

We get our pleasure from the SuperLeague table….

The premier league table ….

 the cricket county championship table

Those tykes should stick to whippets and pigeons

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah I understand. Is there no way you think to revitalise a county rivalry between Yorks and Lancs?

It just seems the obvious route for the highest standard for an annual European representative fixture. I can’t think of anything else that I would care about.

I honestly think there isn't. Fans and players alike just don't care. If it wasn't for SOO no one would be pushing it and that's a pretty poor reason. It works fantastically well in Australia but what works there often doesn't translate to here.

Your second paragraph is also one of the reasons why it won't work. Just like the Exiles matches and French matches don't work. It isn't a high standard fixture and what you get is way off a top quality SL game in terms of skill, speed and intensity. Compare them to a Saints v Wigan game and its way off.

A representative game should be a step up and these games just aren't. France is different, we can and should be doing much more to make that work in terms of a second French SL team, increasing the French full time player pool and making that fixture work. That should benefit both SL as a competition and England internationally. The rest, exiles and Origin type games, I just don't see how they'll ever work.

[glossop saint]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I honestly think there isn't. Fans and players alike just don't care. If it wasn't for SOO no one would be pushing it and that's a pretty poor reason. It works fantastically well in Australia but what works there often doesn't translate to here.

Your second paragraph is also one of the reasons why it won't work. Just like the Exiles matches and French matches don't work. It isn't a high standard fixture and what you get is way off a top quality SL game in terms of skill, speed and intensity. Compare them to a Saints v Wigan game and its way off.

A representative game should be a step up and these games just aren't. France is different, we can and should be doing much more to make that work in terms of a second French SL team, increasing the French full time player pool and making that fixture work. That should benefit both SL as a competition and England internationally. The rest, exiles and Origin type games, I just don't see how they'll ever work.

The last two paragraphs is the reason why the Aussies have dragged their feet over the international game over the years. The perceived lack of a step up in quality and intensity from Origin. Hopefully that is changing but we risk being left behind as in their view the step up involves NRL players representing NZ, Samoa, Fiji etc. This leaves us in the difficult position of what is best for the national side is worst for the domestic competition in that we need our best players playing in the NRL to help gain that respect and thus inclusion in the Aussies mindset for the international game.

As you say, one way to solve this is to boost the game in France to give us some competition. Unfortunately that won't happen as it favouring more French club sides over the bottom of SL, top of Championship sides which is unacceptable to many.