Trouble at t'mill?

[Chrispmartha]

1 hour ago, Curly perm said:

It can’t always be the players’ fault, deciding they want out. Leeming, Austin, Walters, Tindall etc…now McDonald. They can’t all be bad eggs, especially the younger ones who’ve been through the system.  

Kai Morgan looks to be going to Salford and I’ve heard other youngsters are pondering SL deals elsewhere having not made their debuts yet. Which youngster’s deciding they don’t want to play for Leeds having gone through the academy? It’s all they want to do…I’m a Wakey fan and appreciate that. Something’s not right. 

Kai Morgan is behind a few more players at his level in our academy.

Leeds have always had young players leave because we produce a lot and you can't keep them all.

Tindall doesn't want out, he's not been offered a contact because he's not actually very good at being a winger. Sam Lisone has scored more trys  in one game than Tindall has in his Leeds career.

I didn't say they were bad eggs, just that they didn't fit in with the clubs plans, Rohan Smith has said multiple times that he wants players that play for the name on the front of the jersey not the back.

[Chrispmartha]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Never mind, when McDonald leaves you can then sign Brenko Lee 

Not quite sure what the laughing emoji is about - he wouldn't be the worst import to come over here, was good enough to win a comp and played Origin

[The Future is League]

I think there are things going on behind the scenes at Leeds that the Leeds fans and other Rugby League fans are not aware, and in my opinion Smith will not be there this time next season. 05-09-1923.

[redjonn]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think there's poor management and recruitment at play clearly.

you could be right and the club have underachieved for a while now.  Never-the-less one could look at say Catalan who are losing quite a few players at end of season or even Saints whom lose a lot of youngsters given other comments in this thread have focused on losing players come through the academy. A natural aspect for clubs that produce players but salary cap stops you keeping everyone you may wish. Maybe some of those early career decisions Leeds may of chosen the wrong one's to keep.

My perspective would be that the club have more-or-less had the same people at board and department/administration level for a good while.  Sometimes you need new blood to come in.  Plus not keeping ex-players around unless specific coaching jobs, all-be-it shows good loyalty.

Edited September 5, 2023 by redjonn

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

sorry you're right to correct me, this is about leigh again isn't it

If you think it is not relevant just say so, sarcastic .......... , we are discussing the same player who has signed contracts at two different clubs then may not uphold them.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[Man of Kent]

To my eye it looks like Leeds are struggling financially. Didn’t they post significant losses during Covid?

[M j M]

3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

To my eye it looks like Leeds are struggling financially. Didn’t they post significant losses during Covid?

Leeds are not struggling financially.

[Tommygilf]

41 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

To my eye it looks like Leeds are struggling financially. Didn’t they post significant losses during Covid?

That isn't happening, though I do think they are limiting expenditure in lots of ways.

[Tippytoe]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

To my eye it looks like Leeds are struggling financially. Didn’t they post significant losses during Covid?

Yes that sounds fairly sensible but I've heard Gary Hethrington can peel an orange in his pocket with either hand and no one would notice.  

[Hopie]

Leeds are spending as little as possible, that doesn't mean they don't have more to spend.

It is a choice not a necessity.

 

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Leeds are spending as little as possible, that doesn't mean they don't have more to spend.

It is a choice not a necessity.

 

Agreed. 

[Man of Kent]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

That isn't happening, though I do think they are limiting expenditure in lots of ways.

Same thing. They are cutting their cloth. 

[Anita Bath]

8 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Not quite sure what the laughing emoji is about - he wouldn't be the worst import to come over here, was good enough to win a comp and played Origin

but cant make the dolphins team….time has passed him by so its time to head to superleague.

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Same thing. They are cutting their cloth. 

They aren't the same thing. They aren't being forced to do this, which is what you are suggesting.

[ATLANTISMAN]

10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. 

Plenty of new ones coming through and the odd thug from Queens:)))))

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

They aren't the same thing. They aren't being forced to do this, which is what you are suggesting.

I’m not suggesting they are going pop, just that they are struggling financially to compete with the best. Look at Wigan’s recruitment, for example.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m not suggesting they are going pop, just that they are struggling financially to compete with the best. Look at Wigan’s recruitment, for example.

I don't think that is the case. Leeds under Hetherington have never pushed the boat out financially where it wasn't an absolute necessity. Even in our most successful times such as under McDermott between 2011 and 2017, the squad was often pretty average and relied heavily on a core of home grown players (who all repeatedly said they declined better financial offers to stay at Leeds) with a few relatively unknown imports (Cuthbertson, Parcell, Aiton etc). Notably Leeds always seemed to have fewer representatives in the national side in that era too than your Wigan/Saints/Warrington etc.

Leeds not spending over and above is the norm, not the exception.

What has happened in the past few years has been a shrinking core of home grown quality and leadership to make up for the lack of investment elsewhere. That is combined with some inefficient use of the salary cap too. Squad management has been a major issue, and a total lack of leadership has been evident this season especially.

Its an active choice that may well pay off again in the future. 

[Agbrigg]

18 hours ago, Damien said:

Leeds have always been a big club throughout my lifetime, even when they were the games underachievers and had far smaller crowds than now. Things like this do not change that.

Just digressing, when I first started watching the game they were just an ordinary club and there were others that were far 'bigger' and more successful.  In fact the City of Leeds had another strong club South of the river and the rivalry between the two was like the Hull clubs of today. Also let's not forget the Citys third club, little old Bramley. With the demise of Hunslet and extinction of Bramley they have managed to sweep up the rugby supporting public in the City and grown to what they are today. I am sure if the counter balance of Hunslet was still there, then the influence of Leeds would be far less. Also as far as I recall, it was Hunslet that had the best player development system and that area in South Leeds was a very rich bed of RL talent.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Agbrigg said:

Just digressing, when I first started watching the game they were just an ordinary club and there were others that were far 'bigger' and more successful.  In fact the City of Leeds had another strong club South of the river and the rivalry between the two was like the Hull clubs of today. Also let's not forget the Citys third club, little old Bramley. With the demise of Hunslet and extinction of Bramley they have managed to sweep up the rugby supporting public in the City and grown to what they are today. I am sure if the counter balance of Hunslet was still there, then the influence of Leeds would be far less. Also as far as I recall, it was Hunslet that had the best player development system and that area in South Leeds was a very rich bed of RL talent.

Was and had.

The two Hunslet amateur clubs have had to merge. Hunslet themselves despite being in a densely populated RL heartland get crowds smaller than school assemblies now. FWIW, Hunslet itself doesn't really exist anymore as a large urban area as a huge amount of the housing immediately South of the river has been knocked down for industrial and retail uses. Beeston, Belle Isle, Middleton and Holbeck don't seem to have ever been burgeoning with RL either.

Hunslet were almost always going to be the little brother of the 2 clubs eventually. The scale of that is up to them but they are basically invisible in South Leeds now. 

[Saint Toppy]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think that is the case. Leeds under Hetherington have never pushed the boat out financially where it wasn't an absolute necessity. Even in our most successful times such as under McDermott between 2011 and 2017, the squad was often pretty average and relied heavily on a core of home grown players (who all repeatedly said they declined better financial offers to stay at Leeds) with a few relatively unknown imports (Cuthbertson, Parcell, Aiton etc). Notably Leeds always seemed to have fewer representatives in the national side in that era too than your Wigan/Saints/Warrington etc.

Leeds not spending over and above is the norm, not the exception.

What has happened in the past few years has been a shrinking core of home grown quality and leadership to make up for the lack of investment elsewhere. That is combined with some inefficient use of the salary cap too. Squad management has been a major issue, and a total lack of leadership has been evident this season especially.

Its an active choice that may well pay off again in the future. 

Got to agree with most of this. Leeds 'golden era' had teams with a core of home grown players which they supplemented with some pretty decent signings. What seems to have happened is they've dropped the ball somewhat with their junior development. Yes they're still bringing players through but for whatever reason they just don't seem to be of anywhere near the same quality as they have had previously. You look at the young players who have come through into their 1st team over the last 5 years or so and I cant see any of them who are anywhere near the quality of past players like Burrow, McGuire, Hall, Sinfield, McDermott, Diskin etc.

They've ended up with spine players like Myler, Austin & Sezer and now next season Frawley. Whatever way you look at it thats a massive step down from what they've had when they were successful. For Leeds I can't see that changing anytime soon either. The quality coming through the academies of Wigan, Saints and even now Wire look far better than that coming through at Leeds and in much greater numbers.

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Got to agree with most of this. Leeds 'golden era' had teams with a core of home grown players which they supplemented with some pretty decent signings. What seems to have happened is they've dropped the ball somewhat with their junior development. Yes they're still bringing players through but for whatever reason they just don't seem to be of anywhere near the same quality as they have had previously. You look at the young players who have come through into their 1st team over the last 5 years or so and I cant see any of them who are anywhere near the quality of past players like Burrow, McGuire, Hall, Sinfield, McDermott, Diskin etc.

They've ended up with spine players like Myler, Austin & Sezer and now next season Frawley. Whatever way you look at it thats a massive step down from what they've had when they were successful. For Leeds I can't see that changing anytime soon either. The quality coming through the academies of Wigan, Saints and even now Wire look far better than that coming through at Leeds and in much greater numbers.

I disagree about the quality in the academies, this has improved in the last couple of years and I believe this is what the club want to build on, the whole point of Rohan Smith being brought in was his reputation for working with younger players, I think the club realise they have stuffed up in a lot of ways since 2017 (you could argue since 2015) and are trying to rectify this but it will take a couple of years.

They are getting rid of players who don't want to be there and building on players like Handley, Smith, O Conner, Johnson, Oledski, Holroyd who are all young (maybe not Handley) and wave been brought through the system at Leeds.

Some Leeds fans (and other clubs fans) are scoffing at signings like Frawley but we had players like that when the golden generation were coming through, Dunemann for example, we do however need to get the balance right and I think we really need a decent 7 to compete next year. Frawley has been signed to do a job and I hope he does it well.

It's also pointless looking at those players that came through in the early noughties, that was a one off, it is very very rare that any club will have that amount of quality come through all at once and then go on to stay together for over a decade, and we also signed some right dross in that period, they were just carried by that core group of players.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m not suggesting they are going pop, just that they are struggling financially to compete with the best. Look at Wigan’s recruitment, for example.

And yet the last 3 or 4 seasons the Wigan fans have complained about a lack of spending on their squad. These things are cyclical, clubs cant and dont keep throwing money season after season, they need a fallow year or 2 to settle and start again.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Hopie said:

Leeds are spending as little as possible, that doesn't mean they don't have more to spend.

It is a choice not a necessity.

 

 

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. 

Then are they not effectively 'robbing' the fans by going for the cheaper options to make up the squad, Leeds have a loyal band of around 11,000 who turn up at home games both on the terraces and in corporate however the team is performing, as an outsider it seems that this is taken for granted.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Got to agree with most of this. Leeds 'golden era' had teams with a core of home grown players which they supplemented with some pretty decent signings. What seems to have happened is they've dropped the ball somewhat with their junior development. Yes they're still bringing players through but for whatever reason they just don't seem to be of anywhere near the same quality as they have had previously. You look at the young players who have come through into their 1st team over the last 5 years or so and I cant see any of them who are anywhere near the quality of past players like Burrow, McGuire, Hall, Sinfield, McDermott, Diskin etc.

They've ended up with spine players like Myler, Austin & Sezer and now next season Frawley. Whatever way you look at it thats a massive step down from what they've had when they were successful. For Leeds I can't see that changing anytime soon either. The quality coming through the academies of Wigan, Saints and even now Wire look far better than that coming through at Leeds and in much greater numbers.

I think the succession from that "Golden Generation" has been poorly managed frankly.

Players who developed in the latter half of the era and could have carried it on, Watkins, Ward, Hall, Sutcliffe, have all not gone onto further heights with the club for various reasons. That has left a big void in the squad. Even the core of quality reliable squad players like Jimmy Keinhorst have been let go. These are the players who know and set the standards of the club. Without them, the likes of Cameron Smith, Oledski etc have had to come in and start almost from scratch, which is a lot to ask of them. 

Likewise Leeds have seemed to sign domestic players as they get worse, Briscoe and Ferres went from England players to definitely not that whilst at Leeds for example, Gale likewise. Bentley has also struggled to kick on too. There are others of course but they are the one that comes to mind.

That's before we get onto what has clearly been an unsettled squad over the past year or so.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Then are they not effectively 'robbing' the fans by going for the cheaper options to make up the squad, Leeds have a loyal band of around 11,000 who turn up at home games both on the terraces and in corporate however the team is performing, as an outsider it seems that this is taken for granted.

Every week at Leeds there is comments about Hetherington being a penny pincher, and there have been those comments for well over a decade that I can remember (forgive me for not remembering comments when I was 11 ) 

To an extent I think the crowd is/was taken for granted. They've noticeably increased efforts with ticket sales around certain games which has helped this year. But obviously it is noticed by its lacking previously. 

Obviously its fine when trophies are coming into the club, but mediocrity, or worse, isn't acceptable really and fans will vote with their feet if they can't do anything else.