What do SL execs think about Catalan making OT

[EggFace]

4 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

 

I think that's a big part of it.

If you compare the Jags games at Wembley with the Challenge Cup Final, it's not even close. The former you know you're at something big, the latter we're still doing the same old stuff we did decades ago, it feels and is dated. And this means you don't even attract neutral rugby league fans, let alone "sports fans".

In fact I think the "sports fans" or "event crowd" is overstated. It's very rare for people to attend a major sporting event without some sort of previous engagement with the sport. I can vouch that almost everyone that goes to a London NFL game already has some sort of engagement with American football, and this is their one chance to see it in the flesh.

If you live in the north, it's easy to see a rugby league game, so there's less need to trek to Wembley or wherever to see a big final. If you live elsewhere, the few RL opportunities you get offered just don't compare with what else is on offer in terms of committing the the time, effort and expense of going, best to just watch on TV.

To an extent there's a chicken-and-egg situation there, because as the CCF or even GF don't scream "must see" games, then there's less demand or buzz to attend, reinforcing the feeling.              

I look forward to the NRL Grand Final, 6 Nations every year as they are the big occasion and what got me into Rugby League was the Challenge Cup as the one big event like it was Halloween and Christmas Eve as a child and then Super League came along and watched that build and loved it but now I just can't watched a grand finale with lot's of empty seats jusy doesn't sit well for me and feel sorry the players and coaches...Hull derby love it.

[EggFace]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

I don't know if you saw that the NRL came under fire for heavily discounting and then giving freebies away to the recent semi final in Sydney. Maybe RL in this country could learn from that?

I'm as critical of the sport's efforts here and I do agree with many points about the event and marketing, but it is naive to believe that another org would just sell RL better. A lot of the issue is money. And comparing to the NFL (or even NRL) is just silly. 

If it was as easy as some suggest, maybe the NRL wouldn't have such poor in-stadium attendances versus AFL for example. 

Apart from that semi final the NRL doe's a very good job in Australia with crowds and just had a fantastic season but yes that semi final was a royal up by the NRL the final was not.

[EggFace]

3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

I get what you're saying Dave, but the NFL is still a smaller sport in the UK than rugby league and has a fraction of the number of fans here than Taylor Swift does. She has a genuine global reach, the NFL doesn't in any volume. It does, however, offers its small (relative to football etc) number of UK fans something exceptional on the two or three days a year it comes to our shores. 

I think its Hollywood-ness is one of the reasons why NFL has any fans here at all, but it isn't the reason they sell Wembley out and we don't. It's just a better offer, and one we should be capable of matching. 

Burn Hollywood burn

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Because the cup final was the one day out in those pre Catalans, Magic and Grand Final days

We had more days out then than now.  We had a Premiership final at Old Trafford, we had various other cup finals, we even had the odd semi final at the likes of Old Trafford, Elland Road etc and also internationals at Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. And on top of that we had teams playing many more games.

[The Future is League]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

We had more days out then than now.  We had a Premiership final at Old Trafford, we had various other cup finals, we even had the odd semi final at the likes of Old Trafford, Elland Road etc and also internationals at Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. And on top of that we had teams playing many more games.

I think its fair to say that the games has never been marketed well, but nowadays i think its terrible

[phiggins]

2 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

 I had a problem when buying tickets for the Tonga game at St Helens. 9 in my basket but kept coming up with unexpected error. The error was to add a tenth ticket to my basket then take it back out and it let me go to check out. 

Only ever 2 in my basket. I get the ‘unexpected error’ message with a level of predictability that suggests they really ought to rephrase it. 

[Leyther_Matt]

1 minute ago, phiggins said:

Only ever 2 in my basket. I get the ‘unexpected error’ message with a level of predictability that suggests they really ought to rephrase it. 

Add a third one, then delete it when it comes up with your basket and go to proceed to checkout. Worked for me. 

[Barley Mow]

14 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Only ever 2 in my basket. I get the ‘unexpected error’ message with a level of predictability that suggests they really ought to rephrase it. 

 

12 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Add a third one, then delete it when it comes up with your basket and go to proceed to checkout. Worked for me. 

That worked for me too.

[EggFace]

2 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Because the cup final was the one day out in those pre Catalans, Magic and Grand Final days

Magic is a ###### feast

[paul hicks]

well 10 of them would do better to think why were they not good enough to get there

[The Masked Poster]

On 07/10/2023 at 10:26, Dave T said:

It's naive to expect 15k fans from elsewhere to just be attracted and turn up. In reality, many many fans just aren't interested in spending decent money and time on a neutral game. There are of course thousands who are interested, and they will be going if they can. 

But if the gate receipts are down by say, a quarter of a million after all costs then it's really a modest amount between 12 clubs. The financial impact is being overstated, I suspect by people with agendas. 

It’s definitely naive to just expect 15k random punters to just magically turn up that’s for sure.

But I think this could be avoided by starting to promote the final in say, February or March and maybe attract a difference 15k punters? 

[phiggins]

11 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Add a third one, then delete it when it comes up with your basket and go to proceed to checkout. Worked for me. 

Thanks. Got there in the end. What a dreadful system!

[Dave T]

13 hours ago, Damien said:

We had more days out then than now.  We had a Premiership final at Old Trafford, we had various other cup finals, we even had the odd semi final at the likes of Old Trafford, Elland Road etc and also internationals at Wembley, Old Trafford and Elland Road. And on top of that we had teams playing many more games.

It's an interesting one to look at different customer behaviours from 30 years ago versus now. 

Whilst the point you make on the surface may be true, in reality, things like the Regal Trophy in the 90's were minor games, with 11-15k crowds, broadly of the two finalists - often played at regular grounds. Similar with County Cups, a nice final for the finalists - but not really any kind of weekend away or major event.

The Premiership was a decent sized event, but in the Heartlands, with IIRC crowds of around 40k for a double header. 

It really was only the Challenge Cup that was any kind of weekend type event. I do think we have changed that slightly in terms of we now have Wembley, Catalans and Magic. I can absolutely see why people would choose a weekend in Newcastle over London, and I do think it's having an effect. I think it's disappointing that IMG have concluded that it should be scrapped - it feels like it's a bit defeatist from a Cup Final point of view.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's an interesting one to look at different customer behaviours from 30 years ago versus now. 

Whilst the point you make on the surface may be true, in reality, things like the Regal Trophy in the 90's were minor games, with 11-15k crowds, broadly of the two finalists - often played at regular grounds. Similar with County Cups, a nice final for the finalists - but not really any kind of weekend away or major event.

The Premiership was a decent sized event, but in the Heartlands, with IIRC crowds of around 40k for a double header. 

It really was only the Challenge Cup that was any kind of weekend type event. I do think we have changed that slightly in terms of we now have Wembley, Catalans and Magic. I can absolutely see why people would choose a weekend in Newcastle over London, and I do think it's having an effect. I think it's disappointing that IMG have concluded that it should be scrapped - it feels like it's a bit defeatist from a Cup Final point of view.

The Premiership final was at Old Trafford in the same way the Grand Final is. I don't think you can claim one is a weekend style event and the other isn't. Very few stay in Manchester and its no different than a normal away day. The Challenge Cup final now is a double header too if you are including that line of thinking. I completely agree that the other cups where more peripheral but they were unquestionably there and people did go to them and sometimes 40+ other games too. There were a lot more clubs getting to finals and fans going to these and other events too. Whatever way you dice it we had far more variety and fixtures than now and proper big event internationals at least every 2 years. People did go and stay in London for those too.

Magic despite multiple attempts in various cities is still a 50-60k round with a fair few of those counted twice. Often it is less than a normal round of the same fixtures and if it wasn't for the same fans going 2 days certainly would always be. It doesn't appeal to many for various reasons, that is quite clear, and I'm not particularly convinced people choose that over alternatives in any great numbers. I don't actually know many, if anyone, that actually goes and stays in Newcastle these days either and many just treat it as a normal away day.

I think its a bit lazy to put it all down to too many events when many don't even go to probably 2 out of 3 of those or any at all and would never have the intention of doing so. It is the events themselves that are the issue and they are not attractive enough to make enough people want to attend. I genuinely think the international game has the most mileage when it comes to a big event that can inspire people to attend but I've probably told you my views there on that enough times so I wont repeat them here.

[londonrlfan]

Surely having a new name on the trophy is a better look for the sport than another Saints/Wigan GF? The latter might draw a bigger crowd, but it will do nothing for the sport in the long run. 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Damien said:

The Premiership final was at Old Trafford in the same way the Grand Final is. I don't think you can claim one is a weekend style event and the other isn't. Very few stay in Manchester and its no different than a normal away day. The Challenge Cup final now is a double header too if you are including that line of thinking. I completely agree that the other cups where more peripheral but they were unquestionably there and people did go to them and sometimes 40+ other games too. There were a lot more clubs getting to finals and fans going to these and other events too. Whatever way you dice it we had far more variety and fixtures than now and proper big event internationals at least every 2 years. People did go and stay in London for those too.

Magic despite multiple attempts in various cities is still a 50-60k round with a fair few of those counted twice. Often it is less than a normal round of the same fixtures and if it wasn't for the same fans going 2 days certainly would always be. It doesn't appeal to many for various reasons, that is quite clear, and I'm not particularly convinced people choose that over alternatives in any great numbers. I don't actually know many, if anyone, that actually goes and stays in Newcastle these days either and many just treat it as a normal away day.

I think its a bit lazy to put it all down to too many events when many don't even go to probably 2 out of 3 of those or any at all and would never have the intention of doing so. It is the events themselves that are the issue and they are not attractive enough to make enough people want to attend. I genuinely think the international game has the most mileage when it comes to a big event that can inspire people to attend but I've probably told you my views there on that enough times so I wont repeat them here.

I didn't mention the Grand Final intentionally, for the reasons you highlight. 

The weekend away events I referred to were Wembley, Catalans and Magic. 

[Guest]

Been a nightmare for SL.

Cats in the final with a chance of winning it and either London or Toulouse going up.

The muttering is audible. 

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It's an interesting one to look at different customer behaviours from 30 years ago versus now. 

Whilst the point you make on the surface may be true, in reality, things like the Regal Trophy in the 90's were minor games, with 11-15k crowds, broadly of the two finalists - often played at regular grounds. Similar with County Cups, a nice final for the finalists - but not really any kind of weekend away or major event.

The Premiership was a decent sized event, but in the Heartlands, with IIRC crowds of around 40k for a double header. 

It really was only the Challenge Cup that was any kind of weekend type event. I do think we have changed that slightly in terms of we now have Wembley, Catalans and Magic. I can absolutely see why people would choose a weekend in Newcastle over London, and I do think it's having an effect. I think it's disappointing that IMG have concluded that it should be scrapped - it feels like it's a bit defeatist from a Cup Final point of view.

I just picked a snapshot year. 1987-88 as it was my first full season properly following RL.

Here are the final attendances:

Lancashire Cup - 20,237; Yorkshire Cup - 10,947; John Player Trophy - 16,669; Challenge Cup - 94,723; Premiership - 35,252

[Leyther_Matt]

3 hours ago, phiggins said:

Thanks. Got there in the end. What a dreadful system!

First time I’ve had that error tbh in years of using the RFL system and similarly using the same system with Bolton at least twice a month. 

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I just picked a snapshot year. 1987-88 as it was my first full season properly following RL.

Here are the final attendances:

Lancashire Cup - 20,237; Yorkshire Cup - 10,947; John Player Trophy - 16,669; Challenge Cup - 94,723; Premiership - 35,252

Bring back the JPT and the Lancs and Yorks cups! 

[JonM]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I just picked a snapshot year. 1987-88 as it was my first full season properly following RL.

Here are the final attendances:

Lancashire Cup - 20,237; Yorkshire Cup - 10,947; John Player Trophy - 16,669; Challenge Cup - 94,723; Premiership - 35,252

Not an entirely representative year I'd suggest. County cup finals and JPT Final got 4 figure crowds fairly regularly in the 70s and 80s. Two years earlier, the premiership final got 13K at Elland Road - the move to Old Trafford in 1987 and the double header raised its profile massively.

[sheddingswasus]

On 07/10/2023 at 08:41, Adelaide Tiger said:

Is there another sport apart from RL that experiences such a financial impact across the game if their final, or finals, are not filled to capacity?

That is the fundamental problem with the game. It is underfunded at RFL / SL level and also at club level. We shouldn’t have to be reliant on a final to fund the club structure. 

As in Australia we need major sponsors, companies of the stature if Coca Cola, Budweiser, McDonald’s. Surely IMG should be working on this rather than tinkering with a convoluted points system skewed to maintaining the status quo. 

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, JonM said:

Not an entirely representative year I'd suggest. County cup finals and JPT Final got 4 figure crowds fairly regularly in the 70s and 80s. Two years earlier, the premiership final got 13K at Elland Road - the move to Old Trafford in 1987 and the double header raised its profile massively.

And league games got far smaller attendances of a few thousand in the 70s and early 80s too. It seems a little silly to go back to that time and not the decade or so before SL.

@gingerjon could have easily used the following year, 1988-9:

40,194 for the Premiership Final

78,000 for the Challenge Cup final (sellout and restricted due to Wembley becoming all seater)

19,194 for the Lancashire Cup

22,968 for the Yorkshire Cup

20,709 for the John Player Trophy.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Damien

[Eddie]

On 07/10/2023 at 07:41, Adelaide Tiger said:

Is there another sport apart from RL that experiences such a financial impact across the game if their final, or finals, are not filled to capacity?

This will be the case for some countries football associations certainly. Take Belgium to pluck a country out of the air, if their cup final is Anderlecht v Brugge they’ll get a nice windfall, whereas if it’s Lokeren v Kortrijk they won’t. Same as if the Scottish cup final is Celtic v Rangers or Ross County v St Johnstone. 

[Guest]

Belgian football deal annually:

€103,000,000 (£88,500,000)

They will be fine.

Scotland's deal is massively undervalued at about £27m p.a. - but that is on honking management by the SFL.

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

This will be the case for some countries football associations certainly. Take Belgium to pluck a country out of the air, if their cup final is Anderlecht v Brugge they’ll get a nice windfall, whereas if it’s Lokeren v Kortrijk they won’t. Same as if the Scottish cup final is Celtic v Rangers or Ross County v St Johnstone.