England v Tonga series

[Dunbar]

3 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Don't remind me! In fairness, the PA system failure in the WC opener was presumably the stadium's fault, but even so, only in rugby league!

It may be painful at the time but it is not just Rugby League.  The list of wrong anthems is long and hilarious and embarrassing in equal measure. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrong_anthems_incidents

[Blind side johnny]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

History tells us though that we haven't got a brand that just fills grounds. We can't ignore that. As frustrating as it is that we can't fill an 18k capacity ground.

I watched some of the test series against NZ in the early 70's. None of the three games attracted five figure attendances. RL fans take some getting out to internationals.

[Dave T]

59 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

I watched some of the test series against NZ in the early 70's. None of the three games attracted five figure attendances. RL fans take some getting out to internationals.

It's always interesting when you look at historic crowds. We'd built them up quite nicely over the last 20 to 30 years, the 4N was a nice bit of routine. 

[lemmy xaan]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It's always interesting when you look at historic crowds. We'd built them up quite nicely over the last 20 to 30 years, the 4N was a nice bit of routine. 

I watched the horrendous GB v Aus test at Wembley in 1973 on tv. GB won but 9800 fans meant an empty-looking stadium, terrible Eddie Waring commentary, and cut to guest of honour, Ted Heath, reading his programme bored out of his mind. 2nd test, 16,000; 3rd test, 10,000. Throughout the late 60s and early 70s, international attendances were paltry. Grandstand used to cover only the 2nd halves. It's a myth that things were better. They were grim beyond imagination. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, lemmy xaan said:

I watched the horrendous GB v Aus test at Wembley in 1973 on tv. GB won but 9800 fans meant an empty-looking stadium, terrible Eddie Waring commentary, and cut to guest of honour, Ted Heath, reading his programme bored out of his mind. 2nd test, 16,000; 3rd test, 10,000. Throughout the late 60s and early 70s, international attendances were paltry. Grandstand used to cover only the 2nd halves. It's a myth that things were better. They were grim beyond imagination. 

At least we won the odd one. 

[The Masked Poster]

8 minutes ago, lemmy xaan said:

I watched the horrendous GB v Aus test at Wembley in 1973 on tv. GB won but 9800 fans meant an empty-looking stadium, terrible Eddie Waring commentary, and cut to guest of honour, Ted Heath, reading his programme bored out of his mind. 2nd test, 16,000; 3rd test, 10,000. Throughout the late 60s and early 70s, international attendances were paltry. Grandstand used to cover only the 2nd halves. It's a myth that things were better. They were grim beyond imagination. 

It wasn’t just RL that had only the second half shown, they used to do it for RU games too. 

[Archie Gordon]

But we had those shirts with a blue 'shape' on the back - a square with semi-circle cut outs - with white numbers on. They were the best.

[Yakstorm]

If the RFL was only ever planning on doing the bare minimum for the Test Series, then picking St Helens for the opener was a poor choice.

Historically, the new venue has never sold out for an international fixture, with the best result being 14K for Australia v Fiji in 2013 and most games being 11K or less (and interestingly enough, that 11K-14K mark is exactly what England v Tonga is trending for).

For a Game 2 or 3, the venue would have been an easier sell, especially if the opener is a classic, but there was more than enough evidence that you're going to struggle for a sell out there.

Ignoring the non-heartland markets where England/GB have drawn their biggest crowds (London, Manchester, Newcastle), Leeds would have been a more appropriate opener.

Already this Test Series it has been enjoying the best pre-sales and historically fans have turned up at Headingley & Elland Road for Internationals in general & especially England games.

[Leyther_Matt]

48 minutes ago, Yakstorm said:

If the RFL was only ever planning on doing the bare minimum for the Test Series, then picking St Helens for the opener was a poor choice.

Historically, the new venue has never sold out for an international fixture, with the best result being 14K for Australia v Fiji in 2013 and most games being 11K or less (and interestingly enough, that 11K-14K mark is exactly what England v Tonga is trending for).

For a Game 2 or 3, the venue would have been an easier sell, especially if the opener is a classic, but there was more than enough evidence that you're going to struggle for a sell out there.

Ignoring the non-heartland markets where England/GB have drawn their biggest crowds (London, Manchester, Newcastle), Leeds would have been a more appropriate opener.

Already this Test Series it has been enjoying the best pre-sales and historically fans have turned up at Headingley & Elland Road for Internationals in general & especially England games.

I guess they were banking on being the only game on this side of the hill (Pennines, not Billinge)

[dealwithit]

Looking at ticket map I’d be saying 14k for St Helens match. 

[Archie Gordon]

5 hours ago, dealwithit said:

Looking at ticket map I’d be saying 14k for St Helens match. 

If no tickets are being held back, you're right. There's definitely been some brisk sales the past couple of days.

[Archie Gordon]

Sales are above 11k, say the RFL.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

Sales are above 11k, say the RFL.

I feel a mixture of relief that we are at least into 5 figures but complete sadness that it is such a poor total and can't help but feel that we should be doing so much better, for reasons already discussed. 

[Chris22]

Here are attendances for England matches, not against Australia or New Zealand, nor in a World Cup on home soil, since we ditched the GB brands:

April 2023 v France = 8,422
June 2022 v All Stars = 9,393
June 2021 v All Stars = 4,000 (capacity limited due to covid)
October 2018 v France = 5,144
October 2016 v Scotland = 21,009 
October 2013 v Italy = 4,382
June 2013 v Exiles = 7,926
November 2012 v France = 7,921
October 2012 v France = 7,173
July 2012 v Exiles = 7,865
June 2012 v Exiles = 11,083
November 2011 v Wales = 10,377
June 2011 v Exiles = 14,174
October 2010 v France = 7,951
October 2009 v France = 11,529
October 2008 v Wales = 11,263

Given the historic attendances that these fixtures get, I'm not sure why there is such a shock at why we are not selling out these stadiums. It is entirely in line with what we would expect over the course of the last 15 years. 

What arguably is noticable is that the largest crowd came in Coventry (v Scotland in 2016) and Doncaster also posted good crowds (Oct 2008 and 2009), and neither are rugby league hotbeds. Perhaps there's a lesson in there that we can sell internationals to more novice crowds instead of relying on the same each time.

If the map on the RL ticketing site is accurate (a big if), it'll look fine on TV tomorrow.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Here are attendances for England matches, not against Australia or New Zealand, nor in a World Cup on home soil, since we ditched the GB brands:

April 2023 v France = 8,422
June 2022 v All Stars = 9,393
June 2021 v All Stars = 4,000 (capacity limited due to covid)
October 2018 v France = 5,144
October 2016 v Scotland = 21,009 
October 2013 v Italy = 4,382
June 2013 v Exiles = 7,926
November 2012 v France = 7,921
October 2012 v France = 7,173
July 2012 v Exiles = 7,865
June 2012 v Exiles = 11,083
November 2011 v Wales = 10,377
June 2011 v Exiles = 14,174
October 2010 v France = 7,951
October 2009 v France = 11,529
October 2008 v Wales = 11,263

Given the historic attendances that these fixtures get, I'm not sure why there is such a shock at why we are not selling out these stadiums. It is entirely in line with what we would expect over the course of the last 15 years. 

What arguably is noticable is that the largest crowd came in Coventry (v Scotland in 2016) and Doncaster also posted good crowds (Oct 2008 and 2009), and neither are rugby league hotbeds. Perhaps there's a lesson in there that we can sell internationals to more novice crowds instead of relying on the same each time.

If the map on the RL ticketing site is accurate (a big if), it'll look fine on TV tomorrow.

Indeed, and I've been banging this drum for a while on here now. 

However, the disappointment comes from the fact that we should be seeing growth. Us just being broadly in line with our other games is disappointing. This is a historic Test series, but it isn't being pitched like that. It's all a bit "meh".

World Cups are different at the moment, but part of the legacy of World Cups is meant to be the growth that comes form them, so as we've shown that we can get over 20k for England games against minor nations in those tournaments, at some stage that needs to be translating into those crowds in Test Series' etc. 

A 12/13k crowd may be entirely predictable, but it doesn't mean it isn't disappointing. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Here are attendances for England matches, not against Australia or New Zealand, nor in a World Cup on home soil, since we ditched the GB brands:

April 2023 v France = 8,422
June 2022 v All Stars = 9,393
June 2021 v All Stars = 4,000 (capacity limited due to covid)
October 2018 v France = 5,144
October 2016 v Scotland = 21,009 
October 2013 v Italy = 4,382
June 2013 v Exiles = 7,926
November 2012 v France = 7,921
October 2012 v France = 7,173
July 2012 v Exiles = 7,865
June 2012 v Exiles = 11,083
November 2011 v Wales = 10,377
June 2011 v Exiles = 14,174
October 2010 v France = 7,951
October 2009 v France = 11,529
October 2008 v Wales = 11,263

Given the historic attendances that these fixtures get, I'm not sure why there is such a shock at why we are not selling out these stadiums. It is entirely in line with what we would expect over the course of the last 15 years. 

What arguably is noticable is that the largest crowd came in Coventry (v Scotland in 2016) and Doncaster also posted good crowds (Oct 2008 and 2009), and neither are rugby league hotbeds. Perhaps there's a lesson in there that we can sell internationals to more novice crowds instead of relying on the same each time.

If the map on the RL ticketing site is accurate (a big if), it'll look fine on TV tomorrow.

To be frank (you can be Shirley) - most of those games are in the Mickey Mouse bracket. To get 2k-3k more than those for a "legit" opponent is p'ss poor.

We might outdraw France this year and All Stars last year by 3k.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Leonard

[Chris22]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed, and I've been banging this drum for a while on here now. 

However, the disappointment comes from the fact that we should be seeing growth. Us just being broadly in line with our other games is disappointing. This is a historic Test series, but it isn't being pitched like that. It's all a bit "meh".

World Cups are different at the moment, but part of the legacy of World Cups is meant to be the growth that comes form them, so as we've shown that we can get over 20k for England games against minor nations in those tournaments, at some stage that needs to be translating into those crowds in Test Series' etc. 

A 12/13k crowd may be entirely predictable, but it doesn't mean it isn't disappointing. 

I agree that we should be aiming for growth. There is the issue that we are asking the same fans to fork out time after time. Season tickets, away trips, Magic Weekend, cup finals, play offs, internationals. I understand why most are aimed at the same folk and slightly frustrating that the one aspect that is appealing to a wider audience, internationals, remain in the usual venues (including two venues very close to each other).

Saying that, I do appreciate that it's very easy for us to say we should play matches in London, Coventry, Newcastle etc. and actually arranging that mid-football season and, of course, paying for it isn't as straight forward.  I suspect we are paying the price for a World Cup which made a number of strategic errors and lost money. That has probably forced us to be more risk averse.

The test series is a historic one but I still think it is an uphill task to sell Tonga, a country with a population a little larger than the capacity of Wembley, especially to a wider audience. It is a country that most who aren't into rugby will know nothing about, and many may not have even heard of.

For example, I think a match between England v France outside of the heartlands may have a greater appeal on the face of it than a match against Tonga, due to the recognition factor.

[RP London]

On 20/10/2023 at 04:35, Yakstorm said:

The more concerning thing about Ronseal is that they only announced at the start of the year they were extending their sponsorship with the RFL and now all mention of them is gone on all the RL sites.

This isn't the first time this has happened, with Hummel, Duracell, Valvoline, Cadbury & Nestlé all coming to mind as companies who were committed to the national side over the years suddenly vanishing before their contracts were meant to have finished. 

Or in Ronseal's case varnishing..... I'll get my coat 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Indeed, and I've been banging this drum for a while on here now. 

However, the disappointment comes from the fact that we should be seeing growth. Us just being broadly in line with our other games is disappointing. This is a historic Test series, but it isn't being pitched like that. It's all a bit "meh".

World Cups are different at the moment, but part of the legacy of World Cups is meant to be the growth that comes form them, so as we've shown that we can get over 20k for England games against minor nations in those tournaments, at some stage that needs to be translating into those crowds in Test Series' etc. 

A 12/13k crowd may be entirely predictable, but it doesn't mean it isn't disappointing. 

Yeah, none of those matches are comparable to a Tonga test for me either.

[Archie Gordon]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yeah, none of those matches are comparable to a Tonga test for me either.

Precisely. No point saying this won't sell like an NZL series when that's *exactly the point* of this venture - adding another oppo to the portfolio of major series which currently consists of just ENG-AUS and ENG-NZL.

[Hopie]

Tonga are in New Zealand's bracket now, last two world cups both teams had a quarter final and a semi final and Tonga have beaten Australia and GB (recently in International terms), so any crowd should really be compared with that. 

You could say that those not well informed might not know that, but that is the job of those marketing the game, tell them! Although the choice of grounds/schedule points away from that.

[Jack GB]

2 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Tonga are in New Zealand's bracket now, last two world cups both teams had a quarter final and a semi final and Tonga have beaten Australia and GB (recently in International terms), so any crowd should really be compared with that. 

You could say that those not well informed might not know that, but that is the job of those marketing the game, tell them! Although the choice of grounds/schedule points away from that.

Not sure I 100% agree with this - if we look into attracting the general sports fan. NZ are quite recognisable in the overall sporting landscape (RL, RU, Cricket,) - i wouldn't say the same yet for Tonga. 

I would say though to a die hard RL fan Tonga at full strength are right up there as a team i would want to see though. 

[JonM]

27 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Precisely. No point saying this won't sell like an NZL series when that's *exactly the point* of this venture - adding another oppo to the portfolio of major series which currently consists of just ENG-AUS and ENG-NZL.

I'm not sure you can include an England v Australia series really. It's theoretically possible, but the Aussies just aren't interested in playing us.

The last England v Australia game in England was in the 2016 Four Nations at the Olympic Stadium in London. Last time Australia played England in the north of England was in 2011, the last Kangaroo tour to this country for a 3 match series was 2003 (an incredibly close series too.)

[graveyard johnny]

this 

 

 

[dead man inc]

Are tickets for sale on the gate or available online on the day mobile tickets - or do you have to print at home?