IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[DI Keith Fowler]

32 minutes ago, Derwent said:

I tend to agree. As a friend of mine (who isn't an ardent RL fan but has a a passing interest) said yesterday - if this sort of system really drove commercial success then the behemoth that is the Premier League would have done it years ago.

They don't need to, they have a whole pyramid underneath them that acts as a filtering system for unsuitable clubs. Too small a ground you won't be able to commercially succeed for long enough to achieve successive promotions.

We don't have a pyramid, we have a near climax game of Jenga, pull one out from the bottom and try and put it at the top and the whole thing will come down. 

[RP London]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Where have I said people can't discuss it?

Don't worry it's pot calling kettle he doesn't like discussion, if you try it you're obsessed and then he puts you on ignore... its fun, try it

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, DI Keith Fowler said:

They don't need to, they have a whole pyramid underneath them that acts as a filtering system for unsuitable clubs. Too small a ground you won't be able to commercially succeed for long enough to achieve successive promotions.

We don't have a pyramid, we have a near climax game of Jenga, pull one out from the bottom and try and put it at the top and the whole thing will come down. 

Comparisons to the Premier League are futile.

You could just as well point to the NRL who has proper locked out franchising, same with the NFL

[The Blues Ox]

People seem convinced that London are going to be easy beats all season because they will still be using part time players. Personally I think people might get a little bit of a shock. I'm not saying they won't finish bottom because given the system they would be daft now to spend extra money on full time players they may not keep the season after but I still think they will be able to be competitive in a lot of games. Imagine if they managed not to finish bottom with a part time squad though.........

I don't think there has been too much outcry about London as most people had already realised they were going to be a long way off the points required to saty in the top 12, although Im not sure many of us expected just how far they would be off. I think there would have been more of an outcry if Fev had gone up this season and most people would accept them as been the dominant team in the Championship for well over a decade and a pretty forward thinking club yet if they had gone up they would still face the same consequences as London in getting relegated after the 2024 season which again just sounds like madness.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

They don't need to, they have a whole pyramid underneath them that acts as a filtering system for unsuitable clubs. Too small a ground you won't be able to commercially succeed for long enough to achieve successive promotions.

We don't have a pyramid, we have a near climax game of Jenga, pull one out from the bottom and try and put it at the top and the whole thing will come down. 

Football lives in a bubble of its own.. very few sports leagues outside of football don't have some form of lock out or licence system..  and as GJ says football does have a heavy minimum standards they just are all well set to pass them at the top levels. Although Luton had to upgrade the ground heavily this year. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by RP London

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

People seem convinced that London are going to be easy beats all season because they will still be using part time players. Personally I think people might get a little bit of a shock. I'm not saying they won't finish bottom because given the system they would be daft now to spend extra money on full time players they may not keep the season after but I still think they will be able to be competitive in a lot of games. Imagine if they managed not to finish bottom with a part time squad though.........

I don't think there has been too much outcry about London as most people had already realised they were going to be a long way off the points required to saty in the top 12, although Im not sure many of us expected just how far they would be off. I think there would have been more of an outcry if Fev had gone up this season and most people would accept them as been the dominant team in the Championship for well over a decade and a pretty forward thinking club yet if they had gone up they would still face the same consequences as London in getting relegated after the 2024 season which again just sounds like madness.

Exactly, the only club from the Championship this year that had a chance staying up in 2025 was Toulouse.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

You are joking 

I don't know if he's joking or not but I did have a smile about it.

The truth is that the refusal to share best practice has blighted the game since day one.

So the fact that the clubs wouldn't be willing to share best practice is not funny at all, it's tragic.  

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I suppose somebody had to post it , at least now you've done it and given the ' stupid '  answer , nobody else will and we can see everybody else providing a realistic alternative answer ? 

So in that vein , apart from clubs deciding to commit hari kari by merging , how can any club improve its catchment score ? , genuine answers only please 

How's about this, Widnes is part of the borough of Halton. The population of Halton appears to be around the 128,000 mark.  Another couple of thousand new arrivals and the population increases above 130,000. Regardless of any interest in rugby league the new arrivals give Widnes another 0.5 point. Its ridiculous but its quite possible. 

 

[Spidey]

Just now, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

How's about this, Widnes is part of the borough of Halton. The population of Halton appears to be around the 128,000 mark.  Another couple of thousand new arrivals and the population increases above 130,000. Regardless of any interest in rugby league the new arrivals give Widnes another 0.5 point. Its ridiculous but its quite possible. 

 

If all the ex-pat Widnes fans moved back “home” that would do it

[Tommygilf]

49 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Oh, you're setting up the open goal there on purpose, aren't you?

I'm actually in a good mood so I won't go for it

[fighting irish]

59 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I honestly don't see how all these measurements that IMG are collating and amassing is going to improve the popularity of the sport to new eyes by whichever medium you choose, if there is something tangible that it is going to improve the on field offering then I am all for that, but you are very correct though Dave but I will increase your 'many' to all those who want to watch Rugby are not interested in the behind the scenes stuff to all just want to watch the Rugby.

Perhaps you can enlighten me, how are these measures going to improve the game to bring back departed fans and entice new fans, get a bigger TV deal than the one we have got for the next 3 years (which on its conclusion will be 5 years into IMG's involvement) and get more sponsorship if audiences have not improved, I honestly have not got a clue.

I'm not in argumentative mood Harry, but this post caused something to rise up in me which is worth mentioning (I hope).

When we've had (a lot of) reports about the shambolic (and very difficult) system in place for purchasing tickets for the England v Tonga series, being likely to put-off first time buyers, it's a good example of what we as a game should be working to improve behind the scenes.

It's clear that the incumbent management group haven't got a clue. Hopefully IMG can advise.

How many ex-London fans have complained here, about being driven away by the London owner treating them with contempt and completely disregarding their devotion to the club, in his decision making? The fact that London are floundering is because, despite his millions, he's got no idea how to promote the club amongst Londoners and retain them once they engage. Quite plainly, and simply, they are not a well run business. 

They deserve the grading they've got and hopefully he'll accept the criticism and seek help.

When you add in Gubrats comments about the dog-eat-dog nature of inter-club relations (refusing to share best practice, for example) it's clear something needs to be done to change (and educate) our poorest performing clubs (businesses) to move them towards more sustainable futures. This, rather than relying on (and hoping for) some reckless sugar daddy like David Hughes to keep the corpse in the shop window.   

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

I tend to agree. As a friend of mine (who isn't an ardent RL fan but has a a passing interest) said yesterday - if this sort of system really drove commercial success then the behemoth that is the Premier League would have done it years ago.

at the risk of going off on a tangent...... well yes but the premier league also don't have a mad cap system of hindering their top clubs as they see it is/was the top clubs that attract the commercial value.  That is we have an approach of trying to even out competition with a salary based around the lowest common denominator of the weakest club.   The premier league is successful because of the top 2, top 4, now 6 maybe 8 clubs that attracted the commercial interest that ultimately benefits the whole football league structure. All-be-it initially driven by those top clubs commercial value tat attracted the huge pools of money into the sport.

 

[MattSantos]

55 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You should have a look at how they've rigged future Champions Leagues in order to guarantee big club entry and increased viewers and sponsors.

And the footballing world is chuffed with these changes?

Barriers to entry within the proposed European Super League were cited as a significant issue; it's the same here. 

The most important element of a sport, should be the sport. I like what we're doing here, but a mechanism to reward the actual sporting performance needs to be prioritised. If that reward is caveated with standards, then that's fine. To quote folk on here, clubs will know where they stand.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Eh, getting £1.3M will do them much better than a couple of hundred grand.

Harry, there's a contradiction here, in your argument. If you don't mind me saying so. You just can't have, the penny and the bun. 

Let's assume (because the alternative doesn't make any sense) that David Hughes has the clubs best interests at heart.

Now he has a number of options.

If he takes the £1.3 million and uses it to pay himself back, some of the money he's squandered over the years then the team will lose every game and will become a laughing stock embarrassing the game, the club, the players - all and sundry.

Or say, he spends it all on a winning team and climbs to mid-position in the league table by the seasons end (but still treats his fans like they don't matter) then the club hasn't improved at all, has it? It's still a hollow entity, with no real connection to London, hardly any fans and totally dependent on David Hughes for the foreseeable future. Where's the benefit in that? This is precisely what the IMG grading is all about. 

If he has any shame and indeed any integrity, he must use whatever funds he has available to create as competitive a team as he can (to excite and entertain fans, new and old alike) and at the same time improve his back-room organisation, to satisfy the IMG grading criteria.

That's what a ''right-minded'' club owner should be doing. 

[gingerjon]

12 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

And the footballing world is chuffed with these changes?

Not remotely, but that wasn't the point. They are happening and they are happening to increase still further already sky high revenues.

[redjonn]

57 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

People seem convinced that London are going to be easy beats all season because they will still be using part time players. Personally I think people might get a little bit of a shock. I'm not saying they won't finish bottom because given the system they would be daft now to spend extra money on full time players they may not keep the season after but I still think they will be able to be competitive in a lot of games. Imagine if they managed not to finish bottom with a part time squad though.........

...........

On the point of part-time I am surprised that SL rules would allow a non full time club to be part of SL..

[Guest]

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

On the point of part-time I am surprised that SL rules would allow a non full time club to be part of SL..

They usually welcome something like that to provide the veneer of P&R whilst keeping the incumbents as are.

They will have no issue with it at all.

[HawkMan]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

You should have a look at how they've rigged future Champions Leagues in order to guarantee big club entry and increased viewers and sponsors.

The changes to the champions league certainly are to favour the bigger teams, to ward off the threat of a breakaway Super League. Nothing is rigged or guaranteed, if a big club fail to qualify they fail, end of. Ajax of Amsterdam are currently second bottom of Eredivisie , big club but they'll not be in CL if they stay there, nor will Everton for example be invited in because they're big, a pity for them as they'll never get in any other way.

As for Luton Town, they needed to upgrade their stadium, but they won't be judged on social media engagement,  catchment area size or even attendances and kicked out if these fall short. It's just on the field that counts, once you're accepted in.

Edited October 27, 2023 by HawkMan

[The Phantom Horseman]

42 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

How's about this, Widnes is part of the borough of Halton. The population of Halton appears to be around the 128,000 mark.  Another couple of thousand new arrivals and the population increases above 130,000. Regardless of any interest in rugby league the new arrivals give Widnes another 0.5 point. Its ridiculous but its quite possible. 

 

Indeed. Also, as the catchment area only applies to tier 1 or 2 clubs, it's possible that if, say Fev imploded and got relegated to League 1 (I don't for a moment think either will happen, but in theory it's possible), then Cas and Wakey would get an extra half point each

[MattSantos]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Not remotely, but that wasn't the point. They are happening and they are happening to increase still further already sky high revenues.

Agreed. For those clubs. The parallels are clear. That's my point; it's a closed shop, certainly from a sports performance perspective. 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

It's just on the field that counts, once you're accepted in.

I am very subtly drawing attention to the important bit of your post.

[MattSantos]

I've mentioned this before, but it's never been really addressed, particularly by the folk who are massive advocates of the grading.

Championship club X win a Grand Final. When will they know whether they've been promoted or not? Is this the way we should be treating the sports fans? Additionally, you don't need to win a GF, you could finish 4th and because of some wonderful business acumen, be promoted. How will that work from a fans perspective. Conversely, and even worse, imagine being relegated after the season's end... and being notified through a press conference you've read about on holiday.

Thoughts?

[HawkMan]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I am very subtly drawing attention to the important bit of your post.

But ,social media engagement,  attendances, catchment area ,  stadium utilisation isn't considered, just stadium facilities. If Luton finish 15th they won't be booted out if their  attendances are 2,000.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I've mentioned this before, but it's never been really addressed, particularly by the folk who are massive advocates of the grading.

Championship club X win a Grand Final. When will they know whether they've been promoted or not? Is this the way we should be treating the sports fans? Additionally, you don't need to win a GF, you could finish 4th and because of some wonderful business acumen, be promoted. How will that work from a fans perspective. Conversely, and even worse, imagine being relegated after the season's end... and being notified through a press conference you've read about on holiday.

Thoughts?

You tell them those are the rules and that's what everyone signed up for, of course.

Until the rules change. 

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I've mentioned this before, but it's never been really addressed, particularly by the folk who are massive advocates of the grading.

Championship club X win a Grand Final. When will they know whether they've been promoted or not? Is this the way we should be treating the sports fans? Additionally, you don't need to win a GF, you could finish 4th and because of some wonderful business acumen, be promoted. How will that work from a fans perspective. Conversely, and even worse, imagine being relegated after the season's end... and being notified through a press conference you've read about on holiday.

Thoughts?

My experience with soccer where contrary to some inaccurate comments on this board from time to time, promotion is not automatic and nor is relegation is that you usually know who can go up if they finish in a promotion spot a couple of months before the end of the season.

This explains the massive unpopularity of football in this country, of course.