Where did it go wrong? International RL

[ehbandit]

I’m just watching the 2nd ashes test from 1994 on YouTube. A packed Old Trafford looks outstanding. 
why don’t we have this nowadays?

[Damien]

It seemed to start going wrong with Super League to me. Playing at the same time was meant to make the international game better by synchronising seasons but quite the reverse has happened. The international game has now declined to people patting themselves on the back for playing 3 matches at the end of the year and mid season internationals are rare, and not even allowed by the NRL.

GB/England being uncompetitive in the years around 2000 didn't help but isn't the major issue for me. At many times we have had various international teams, whether England, NZ or Tonga, that have been competitive with Australia but simply have not built on it. Now its just a constant battle to get games on.

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, ehbandit said:

I’m just watching the 2nd ashes test from 1994 on YouTube. A packed Old Trafford looks outstanding. 
why don’t we have this nowadays?

We didn't have it in most of the years before, either.

The period running from, roughly, 1980-1994 is the outlier not the norm.

[JohnM]

It all went wrong with the introduction of long-distance air travel.

[sam4731]

2 hours ago, ehbandit said:

I’m just watching the 2nd ashes test from 1994 on YouTube. A packed Old Trafford looks outstanding. 
why don’t we have this nowadays?

I would say that tighter finances has meant more chairmen looking after their own self interests more and more and the simple fact that internationals are an annoying inconvenience to them.

That coupled with the NRL treating the international game as if its dirt on its shoe means not many are very interested anymore.

[bamfordsbeans]

I used to dream of us beating the Aussies.

That dream has now been downgraded to just playing them.

[JM2010]

It’s February and the end of season international hasn’t even been confirmed yet. So much for making internationals a big event and selling tickets early.

We all know what’s going to happen. Samoa series confirmed mid way through the season so all good sized venues are unavailable and a rush to sell tickets in Yorkshire and the NW

Edited February 1 by JM2010

[Dave T]

The international game is a bit of a mess, particularly with our England hat and scarves on, but I think many internationals over the last decade compare we'll to the 90s which is often treated as a but of a peak. 

Without the pandemic, it's very likely we'd have had a good Ashes series, the Four Nations was doing nicely before being sacked off, and the World Cup has served up some great major events. 

The demand is clearly there, for a wider range of teams, we just still have no idea how to capitalise on it. 

 

[ghost crayfish]

Yeah let's not forget that the last World Cup saw 40k plus in attendance for two England test matches against Samoa, 30k at Elland Road for Australia v NZ and Old Trafford was packed with almost 70,000 people for a game not even involving England - all of this was pretty much unthinkable in the golden age of the 1990s! 

Still, the difference is the 90s international game was coherent and meaningful in a way the current schedule largely isn't. The Ashes were seen as the pinnacle for Australian players in a way test football doesn't even come close to now. A big part of that IMO is scheduling - Australia should play one mid-season test match each year, after Origin. Position test football as the pinnacle; a reward that players are competing for in the origin series. 

[Hopie]

Most of the demand to watch the matches is in the Northern Hemisphere, most of the talent, power and money required to put on the matches is in the Southern Hemisphere. 

[Whippet13]

International RL didn't "go wrong", it is played between more nations than ever before.

If this is just about England v Australia then it's just down to people seeing financial priorities elsewhere.

Rather than bemoaning that, look ahead to what England have coming up - Samoa(tbc), Australia, WC, pretty exciting stuff I think.

Edited February 2 by Whippet13

[JohnM]

In 'th olden days, when I were a lad, Aussie tours and test series used to take place over several weeks, maybe three test matches and six club games, iirc. The extended programme allowed for the generation of increasing interest amongst fans, media (not just BBC TV) , defocusing from the league and creating more of a festival feel than today's fly-in-fly out games.

Yes there are other internationals but for me, and I suspect for the wider sporting public, nothing, but nothing, come close to the England Vs Australia games 

[Dunbar]

20 hours ago, gingerjon said:

We didn't have it in most of the years before, either.

The period running from, roughly, 1980-1994 is the outlier not the norm.

Just for anyone who wants to see the actual numbers.

Great Britain or England played Australia 12 time in the 1980's to an aggregate attendance of ~312,000 people.

In the 1970's the same teams played each other 24 times with an aggregate attendance of ~624,000 people.

The 1980's comes in 8th out of the 12 decades of games between Great Britain/England in both number of games played and the aggregate attendance - the decade before comes 1st in number of games and 2nd in attendance.

In fact, your 15 year 'outlier' period of 1980 to 1994 saw 21 games and an aggregate attendance of 736,000 and surpassed by the 1950's which saw 20 games and 802,000 in attendance in the decade.

Edited February 2 by Dunbar

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

International RL didn't "go wrong", it is played between more nations than ever before.

If this is just about England v Australia then it's just down to people seeing financial priorities elsewhere.

Rather than bemoaning that, look ahead to what England have coming up - Samoa(tbc), Australia, WC, pretty exciting stuff I think.

RL was played in plenty of nations too in the early 1990's under far more difficulties than now with the RU ban on players playing Rugby League in full force. There was also a schedule pretty much set in stone and tours by the likes of PNG and games against France.

In 1995 we had a 10 team World Cup and and a 7 team emerging nations tournament, that started the first forays of the likes of Ireland and Scotland into international competition, who frankly haven't progressed one bit in the near 30 years since. Others like Russia, Moldova and Morocco have largely gone by the wayside. The next RLWC World Cup is now going back to 10 teams and been put back a year.

If we are talking competitive nations at the top level then sure the rise of Tonga, Samoa et al is welcome but that is largely as a result of eligibility changes, 3 generations of PI immigration to Australia and New Zealand and the dominance of the NRL in that region. Let's also not forget that these nations also first came to the fore in the 1995 World Cup and I remember watching England v Fiji at a packed Central Park. In that World Cup Tonga only lost by 1 point against New Zealand and Western Samoa battered France too, without all of the advantages they have now too. Wales also had a great team and gave England a heck of a scare in a World Cup semi final too.

Sure it wasn't always sweetness and light and I remember going to some bleak internationals at Central Park and I love the progress that has been made in the likes of Serbia, Greece and Jamaica. However in 1995 a bright dawn beckoned for international Rugby League and through a combination of factors, such as the seasons synchronising, the SL war and the power of the NRL, it certainly hasn't kicked on like it should have.

The fact you want us to look forward to what England have coming up, Samoa that haven't been confirmed, Australia that hasn't really been confirmed and has still has no dates and a World Cup which has been put back a year and with which we still don't know when or where, says it all. 

 

[gingerjon]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just for anyone who wants to see the actual numbers.

Great Britain or England played Australia 12 time in the 1980's to an aggregate attendance of ~312,000 people.

In the 1970's the same teams played each other 24 times with an aggregate attendance of ~624,000 people.

The 1980's comes in 8th out of the 12 decades of games between Great Britain/England in both number of games played and the aggregate attendance - the decade before comes 1st in number of games and 2nd in attendance.

In fact, your 15 year 'outlier' period of 1980 to 1994 saw 21 games and an aggregate attendance of 736,000 and surpassed by the 1950's which saw 20 games and 802,000 in attendance in the decade.

So the 1980s weren’t that good either?

Fair enough. Nostalgia is a helluva drug, I should have checked.

[JohnM]

As a matter of interest, to help clear the softening mists of time and to stop you doing any meaniful work today, how many club vs Australia games were there in each of the decades (1950s, 1960s etc).

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

So the 1980s weren’t that good either?

Fair enough. Nostalgia is a helluva drug, I should have checked.

I loved international Rugby League in the 1980's - especially the Kangaroo and Great Britain games - some of the fondest memories of my life is attending the UK games and getting up early to watch the games in Australia.

But if you want to use the '1980s weren't that good either' line to spin your incorrect post then that is your prerogative.

And yes.  You should have checked.

[Farmduck]

13 minutes ago, JohnM said:

As a matter of interest, to help clear the softening mists of time and to stop you doing any meaniful work today, how many club vs Australia games were there in each of the decades (1950s, 1960s etc).

An absurd number.

1956 - 16 against club teams

1959 - 21

1963 - 19

1967 - 17

On most of those you also had 3 GB Test + 3 France tests and 6-8 club games in France. In club games I include "clubs" like Lancashire and Cumberland. (I assume Cumberland is what we would now call Cumbria.)

In 1956 the first game in England was 10 October and the last one was 15 December, then off to France. Back then the OZ season used to start first week of April and finish first week (or second week) of September.

In the days before they flew, the OZ players used to miss the finals here because they were already on the boat.

[gingerjon]

34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I loved international Rugby League in the 1980's - especially the Kangaroo and Great Britain games - some of the fondest memories of my life is attending the UK games and getting up early to watch the games in Australia.

But if you want to use the '1980s weren't that good either' line to spin your incorrect post then that is your prerogative.

And yes.  You should have checked.

I just meant the figures were not as consistently high as my memory would have had me believe. A game a year on average and an average gate well under 30k.

I enjoyed them too. Shame it was no better than before or since, really.

[Sports Prophet]

Where did it all go wrong? Well, I take on board those who said it wasn’t awesome prior, but, as if that matters.

The OP is referencing mid 90s when international league was, as I agree, at its peak. The sport grew to a level which with good administration should at the very least, retained its value. The fact is, it did not.

So, what went wrong?

As far as I am concerned, a mixture of SL (war), FT professionalism and a lack of competitive opponents to the Kangaroos.

Before long, the NRL swept aside any suggestion the ESL was an equally competitive league and with that lost the interest of the Australian public. Forgotten were the great Brits who could come to Aus and tear the competition to pieces like we saw prior to SL (war).

The English game and the competitive nature of the international game fell behind akin to the likes of Ajax, Grasshoppers, Celtic, Lyon and Marseille who could not keep up with the commercialisation of football.

It all went wrong (if that’s what you think it has) with the capitalisation of RL. One group turned out to be bigger than the other. The power hasn’t shifted since and is unlikely to do so in any of our lifetimes.

[meast]

On 01/02/2024 at 13:15, ehbandit said:

I’m just watching the 2nd ashes test from 1994 on YouTube. A packed Old Trafford looks outstanding. 
why don’t we have this nowadays?

Because the world has moved on from 1994?

[Trojan]

On 01/02/2024 at 13:29, gingerjon said:

We didn't have it in most of the years before, either.

The period running from, roughly, 1980-1994 is the outlier not the norm.

We beat them in 1970, and fairly regularly up until then.  We ran them close in 1978.  It was '82 and '86 where we began to struggle.  in '88, 90, & '92 we gave them a game. Since then it's been no contest.  Circumstantial evidence points to the problem being SL.

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, Trojan said:

We beat them in 1970, and fairly regularly up until then.  We ran them close in 1978.  It was '82 and '86 where we began to struggle.  in '88, 90, & '92 we gave them a game. Since then it's been no contest.  Circumstantial evidence points to the problem being SL.

I mean, this just isn't true, did you stop watching after 1992?

1994 - We won the first test at Wembley before losing 2-1

1995 - We beat them in the World Cup, before losing closely to them in the final.

1997 - We lost 2 v 1 in the SL ashes.

2000 - Aussies beat us in WC opener.

2001 - We beat them in the first test before losing 2-1

2003 - We lost 3 nil - however we lost the games by 4pts, 3pts and 6pts.

2004 - We beat them in the 4N before losing in the final.

2005 - We lost both games versus the Aussies in the 4N.

2006 - We beat the Aussies in Sydney, before they knocked us out beating us in Brisbane.

2008 - we had a shocking World Cup

2009 - Aussies beat us 2 nil (we made the final)

2010 - Aussies bet us once

2011 - Aussies beat us 2 nil (we made the final)

2013 - Aussies beat us by 8pts in the WC opener

2014 - Lost - controversial no-try for Ryan Hall (16v12)

2016 - Lost in 4N

2017 - Lost twice - both close games, inclduing a 6 nil defeat in WC final

So actually, the crowds declined when we were still competitive, winning the odd game against them. And they declined more for off-field reasons - politics of the SL war, plus the disastrous 2000 WC. Despite us not winning against the Aussies since 2006 we built up the crowds and have delivered huge international events in this country.

Those suggesting crowds have dropped because we don't beat the Aussies are not supported with any evidence.

[Dunbar]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I just meant the figures were not as consistently high as my memory would have had me believe. A game a year on average and an average gate well under 30k.

I enjoyed them too. Shame it was no better than before or since, really.

You do make me smile.

You have gone from:

"We didn't have it in most of the years before, either. The period running from, roughly, 1980-1994 is the outlier not the norm."

To:

"I just meant the figures were not as consistently high as my memory would have had me believe."

I do have to ask if you are a politician because your ability to evade any kind of answer is amazing. 

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Trojan said:

We beat them in 1970, and fairly regularly up until then.  We ran them close in 1978.  It was '82 and '86 where we began to struggle.  in '88, 90, & '92 we gave them a game. Since then it's been no contest.  Circumstantial evidence points to the problem being SL.

We were well beaten in 82 and the same in 86.

The years, imo, when we lost being competitive, were when Jack Gibson introduced new training techniques, focused on strength, fitness and defense being key.  Aussie teams bought into it, England carried on believing in training twice a week and the magic sponge.

When Larder did his research and brought his coaching manual out it was late 80,s followed by the RFL coaching scheme and then players went full time the horse had bolted.

We’ve come close since and again, imo, are very slowly catching up but the current attitudes to international RL and a pathetic quango we call the IRL are essential hurdles we need to get past.