War of the Roses (Again)

[sam4731]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Are you saying no effort has been put in on the other one hundred occasions?

What would be different this time?

 

6 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

But what are the circumstances in which WotR attracts anything other than 9-12k and limited media attention? What effort has been missing previously?

WotR hasn't been done for over 20 years. Maybe they didn't do anything wrong last time but we're living in a different world now. The landscape of broadcasting has changed and social media is now a thing. The last time Roses was played Youtube didn't even exist. All I can go on is the marketing that has happened for the last few mid season internationals which has been to announce matches ad selling tickets far too late, tell nobody about matches and only preach to the converted instead of trying to bring new fans in.

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

 

WotR hasn't been done for over 20 years. Maybe they didn't do anything wrong last time but we're living in a different world now. The landscape of broadcasting has changed and social media is now a thing. The last time Roses was played Youtube didn't even exist. All I can go on is the marketing that has happened for the last few mid season internationals which has been to announce matches ad selling tickets far too late, tell nobody about matches and only preach to the converted instead of trying to bring new fans in.

Nothing says preaching to the converted like resurrecting War of the Roses and Lancashire v Yorkshire. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Interesting that Shaun Wane thought when questioned thought that WotR was a better preparation game for the players than England-France - that seemed the strongest part of his argument to revive the concept of WotR.  Looking at it from purely that perspective maybe it is an idea that has legs.

Conversely I’d rather see a focus on international rugby league.  I was very pro England-France, but the latest drubbings and scheduling has changed my mind that it is helping either nation develop in a positive direction.  I am now coming around to the idea that England Knights vs France and Wales could and should be revived as argued by others earlier in the thread.

Its not all perfect by any stretch but maybe we are where we are and have to go from there to where we want to get i.e. England players getting the best hit outs possible ahead of tests against Southern hemisphere nations and France/Wales having a development cycle that doesn’t entail a lot of completely lopsided games with England.

WotR would need some dramatic spit and polish as a competitive game designed to bring in money.  I’ve said before on here I would look bring to fans on board by giving them a baseball all star selection process.  A chance to choose in a limited way the make up of the squads of the top players for the two teams.  Get them involved basically and utilise the technology now at our disposal.

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[Adelaide Tiger]

2 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think there must be 10-15 PNG players in SL and the Champ for 2025. You could fly over about 10 more players/staff without the NRL noticing and probably only PNG Hunters would be impacted. It represents a fantastic opportunity for everyone IMO.

What a great idea!

If this went ahead in, say, 2025, I can’t wait to hear the RFL ring the PNG Hunters to tell them that we don’t give a stuff about disrupting the PNG Hunters season for 2-3 weeks.  Imagine if the Aussies wanted to play England mid season and they ring Wigan and tell them to send over 10-15 players for 2-3 weeks to complement the 7/8 English players in the NRL.

But, what happens in 2026 ….. do you disrupt the PNG Hunters in that year as well?  What about in 2027 …. 2028?  Do you keep playing PNG every year? 

It’s quite simple.  IMHO there are just three choices:

1. Play France. 

2. Play a Combined Team.

3. War of the Roses

All of the above have pro’s and con’s. 

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

What a great idea!

If this went ahead in, say, 2025, I can’t wait to hear the RFL ring the PNG Hunters to tell them that we don’t give a stuff about disrupting the PNG Hunters season for 2-3 weeks.  Imagine if the Aussies wanted to play England mid season and they ring Wigan and tell them to send over 10-15 players for 2-3 weeks to complement the 7/8 English players in the NRL.

But, what happens in 2026 ….. do you disrupt the PNG Hunters in that year as well?  What about in 2027 …. 2028?  Do you keep playing PNG every year? 

It’s quite simple.  IMHO there are just three choices:

1. Play France. 

2. Play a Combined Team.

3. War of the Roses

All of the above have pro’s and con’s. 

Just daft.

[sam4731]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

Nothing says preaching to the converted like resurrecting War of the Roses and Lancashire v Yorkshire. 

Game 3 of this year's Origin was the most watched programme at the time in Melbourne and the second most watched in Adelaide and Perth.

[Hopie]

7 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

What a great idea!

If this went ahead in, say, 2025, I can’t wait to hear the RFL ring the PNG Hunters to tell them that we don’t give a stuff about disrupting the PNG Hunters season for 2-3 weeks.  Imagine if the Aussies wanted to play England mid season and they ring Wigan and tell them to send over 10-15 players for 2-3 weeks to complement the 7/8 English players in the NRL.

But, what happens in 2026 ….. do you disrupt the PNG Hunters in that year as well?  What about in 2027 …. 2028?  Do you keep playing PNG every year? 

 

You are quite correct of course, the domestic leagues have been disrupting the mid season international window for far too long.

[EagleEyePie]

3 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

Exactly.

And I think Wane's suggestion is actually made even worse by him wanting 'Briersy and Lasty' (in other words himself) picking the teams. Tinpot.

And that's all before McMeeken et al are made to pick a side ...

Wane's suggestion is actually the only way it makes any sense. The only reasonable argument for bringing it back at this time is to provide competition for England selection. Therefore, it would be pointless if you have two coaches independent of the England side selecting players who would never be in the reckoning.

Obviously, the ideal scenario is a full England international. It always will be. Having said that, pummelling France mid-season is essentially a waste of time when it comes to preparation for the Ashes series (which is Wane's number 1 priority).

There aren't really many choices here. An international with France is always sub-par. A game against a combined nations team is always dogged by the issue of overseas players not wanting to play, so it's hardly the best of the best.

Perhaps a WotR game that's specifically linked to England selection might just encourage the players involved to get into it if they know they've been picked by the England coach and it's an opportunity to impress. Or maybe it won't, but a victory over Australia in the Ashes would be beneficial for the game and we need to go whatever we can to increase our chances of doing just that.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

What a great idea!

If this went ahead in, say, 2025, I can’t wait to hear the RFL ring the PNG Hunters to tell them that we don’t give a stuff about disrupting the PNG Hunters season for 2-3 weeks.  Imagine if the Aussies wanted to play England mid season and they ring Wigan and tell them to send over 10-15 players for 2-3 weeks to complement the 7/8 English players in the NRL.

But, what happens in 2026 ….. do you disrupt the PNG Hunters in that year as well?  What about in 2027 …. 2028?  Do you keep playing PNG every year? 

It’s quite simple.  IMHO there are just three choices:

1. Play France. 

2. Play a Combined Team.

3. War of the Roses

All of the above have pro’s and con’s. 

The trouble is with all of these the pros are very limited. 

With playing France it keeps the international game ticking along, gets players together mid season and gives something to sell to sponsors when it comes to the England brand.

The other two dont do that. They will probably get a slightly higher crowd and get some people more excited but don't don't anything for England in my opinion. They don't provide that training camp though and they certainly won't contain the best players. They do nothing for the international game or developing other countries.

The biggest issue though, which is common to all three, is that they are a lower standard than a good SL game between the top teams. Therefore once you strip out any international ideals the other two just leave me thinking whats the point.

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Game 3 of this year's Origin was the most watched programme at the time in Melbourne and the second most watched in Adelaide and Perth.

And? This ain't Origin or close to it.

[sam4731]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

And? This ain't Origin or close to it.

I feel like I'm going round in circles. I know it isn't and I'm not saying Roses would be an over night success but I do think that with enough effort it could be successful.

[Dunbar]

I don't really understand Shaun Wane's perspective on this.  I really can't see how a Roses match can offer any type of preparation, it will have player withdrawals and I am not sure it would be any more intense or competitive than a top end Super League game.  What could he learn about the players that he doesn't already know.

I would have thought having the squad together to bond and practice together would be far more valuable time - even if 80 minutes on the pitch are not the most challenging against France, the time spent would be.

[Phil W]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

And? This ain't Origin or close to it.

Exactly, it's like a wish.com version of origin. 

Games cost money to put on and the focus at the moment should be on selling out Challenge Cup Final, Grand Final, Magic and an end of season series. This season we haven't sold out any of those games, so building attendance on these should be a priority. 

[Hopie]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I don't really understand Shaun Wane's perspective on this.  I really can't see how a Roses match can offer any type of preparation, it will have player withdrawals and I am not sure it would be any more intense or competitive than a top end Super League game.  What could he learn about the players that he doesn't already know.

I would have thought having the squad together to bond and practice together would be far more valuable time - even if 80 minutes on the pitch are not the most challenging against France, the time spent would be.

Player withdrawals happen with every mid season effort because the clubs believe themselves above all else in both hemispheres. If the England coach is asking his player to buy into something, then they should do so if they have the right motivation and he is the man to motivate them. But I can see several benefits to having Roses over a game v France:

Twice as many players going into a rep camp, that the England coach is in charge of.

Showing how quickly players can adapt to playing with different players/tactics from the ones they play each week, a key part of internationals when squads are often different to what you would like if everyone is fit and free to play.

Doesn't prevent the players coming together at the start and end of the roses period to cement the "all for England" approach.

That's before you get to the Roses game being more competitive and intense than England v France.

[JonM]

5 minutes ago, Hopie said:

That's before you get to the Roses game being more competitive and intense than England v France.

LOL. As if.

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Player withdrawals happen with every mid season effort because the clubs believe themselves above all else in both hemispheres. If the England coach is asking his player to buy into something, then they should do so if they have the right motivation and he is the man to motivate them. But I can see several benefits to having Roses over a game v France:

Twice as many players going into a rep camp, that the England coach is in charge of.

Showing how quickly players can adapt to playing with different players/tactics from the ones they play each week, a key part of internationals when squads are often different to what you would like if everyone is fit and free to play.

Doesn't prevent the players coming together at the start and end of the roses period to cement the "all for England" approach.

That's before you get to the Roses game being more competitive and intense than England v France.

Is there a limit to how many players Wane can bring into a single England rep camp... not sure why having two separate camps is favourable?

If the game was going raise the bar in the quality of Rugby League in this country, I would be all for it.  But I don't see how it is going to do that.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

2 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I would look bring to fans on board by giving them a baseball all star selection process.  A chance to choose in a limited way the make up of the squads of the top players for the two teams.  Get them involved basically and utilise the technology now at our disposal.

 

Using fans would end up creating a product similar to the skewed Wembley Statue

[JM2010]

What would the 2 line ups be? Anyone want to give the potential 17s of each team?

[Hopie]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Is there a limit to how many players Wane can bring into a single England rep camp... not sure why having two separate camps is favourable?

If the game was going raise the bar in the quality of Rugby League in this country, I would be all for it.  But I don't see how it is going to do that.

If we limit the England coaches chances of success we don't deserve the boost a successful England would bring to the game. 

Will the roses game raise the bar of Rugby League in this country more, less or the same as games against France? 

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Hopie said:

If we limit the England coaches chances of success we don't deserve the boost a successful England would bring to the game. 

Will the roses game raise the bar of Rugby League in this country more, less or the same as games against France? 

My personal view is that it would be less valuable than a camp and a game against France.  But I am not the England coach,

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Will the roses game raise the bar of Rugby League in this country more, less or the same as games against France? 

If those are our only options then I'm of the view that "neither" is a valid answer.

[Dullish Mood]

Was an amazing success last time….let’s do it again! couldn’t think of anything more small time and parochial if I tried to be honest.

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 hours ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

Using fans would end up creating a product similar to the skewed Wembley Statue

Maybe, depends how you manufactured it to avoid favouritism.

[Chrispmartha]

I would imagine there’s more support from support of Yorkshire teams in favour than ‘Lancashire’ teams.

Is there actually any teams in SL from actual Lancashire is it a thing that people and more importantly the players would get behind?

[EagleEyePie]

2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

What would the 2 line ups be? Anyone want to give the potential 17s of each team?

Asterisks are players who haven't featured for England for a while or haven't featured at all.

Lancashire
FB - Welsby
W - Ashton
C - Percival*
C - Gildart*
W - Marshall
SO - Williams
SH - Smith
P - Havard
H - O'Neill
P - Lees
SR - Currie
SR - Nsemba
LF - Knowles

Bench - Delaney, Thompson, Whitley*, Walker
 

Yorkshire
FB - Evalds*
W - Handley
C - Newman
C - Wardle
W - Johnstone
SO - ?
SH - Lewis
P - Burgess
H - Clark
P - Harrison
SR - Nicholson
SR - Batchelor*
LF - Minchella

Bench - Dupree, Wilson, McMeeken?, Litten

If we could get relatively full strength sides I think we could get a competitive game. Yorkshire would have much more strength in depth in the centres so I went for Percival and Gildart due to experience but if someone like Sam Halsall or Zach Eckersley has a good start to the season there'd be a great opportunity for them to stake a claim.

Not sure who would partner Lewis in the halves in this hypothetical Yorkshire side but again, any uncertainty is an opportunity.