Expansion or Consolidation?

[Eddie]

There’s obviously a lot of focus on expansion to breathe new life into RL, and rightly so, but I rarely hear anything about helping declining clubs in traditional RL areas.

Given the history of failure of expansion in the UK (with a handful of happy exceptions) might it be better to focus on reviving traditional clubs and helping them thrive to get more people interested in the game, instead of chasing the dream of establishing RL in uninterested big cities? It might be an easier, less costly and more worthwhile way of doing it. I’m talking Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington, Oldham, Rochdale, Doncaster etc, areas with big RL traditions and plenty of people, but floundering clubs. 

Anyone who thinks there will ever be an RL team in for example Liverpool, attracting more than a few hundred fans is far wide of the mark. However York have shown what can be done with a lot of initiative and hard work. 

Naturally this all takes people willing to do it, and a lot of money, but far less I expect than setting up new clubs from scratch in places where nobody cares.

 

[sweaty craiq]

Its not either or -  its both, and there is a simple way to remain unified and achieve it.

[EssexRL]

2 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Its not either or -  its both, and there is a simple way to remain unified and achieve it.

Exactly. Expansion has to be carefully assessed in terms of viability and appropriately supported. 

The game will stagnate as much in Hunslet as Harrow or Hartlepool if it’s not promoted. But where’s the money for marketing going to come from? 

[Moove]

19 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Its not either or -  its both, and there is a simple way to remain unified and achieve it.

And what is this simple way out of interest?

[OriginalMrC]

22 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Its not either or -  its both, and there is a simple way to remain unified and achieve it.

Exactly All clubs should receive support and there are benefits for everyone if expansion clubs are helped to grow AND the heartlands supported. 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

There’s obviously a lot of focus on expansion to breathe new life into RL, and rightly so, but I rarely hear anything about helping declining clubs in traditional RL areas.

Given the history of failure of expansion in the UK (with a handful of happy exceptions) might it be better to focus on reviving traditional clubs and helping them thrive to get more people interested in the game, instead of chasing the dream of establishing RL in uninterested big cities? It might be an easier, less costly and more worthwhile way of doing it. I’m talking Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington, Oldham, Rochdale, Doncaster etc, areas with big RL traditions and plenty of people, but floundering clubs. 

Anyone who thinks there will ever be an RL team in for example Liverpool, attracting more than a few hundred fans is far wide of the mark. However York have shown what can be done with a lot of initiative and hard work. 

Naturally this all takes people willing to do it, and a lot of money, but far less I expect than setting up new clubs from scratch in places where nobody cares.

 

the "history of failure", can you expand on that comment? You're comparing apples with starfish, the chance for an expansion club to survive and flourish in the 1980s were stupidly low. The clubs that did spring up and went on for a while did so despite the RFL and the circumstances of sod all money in the game and the whole 80s/90s thing in the UK.

Your traditional clubs have had over a 100 years, had their go, done well in some instances but are no longer a name within the sport, dropped to much lower divisions or even disappeared. Bradford for instance have had three resurrections after going belly up and that is supposedly in the absolute heart of the sport.

Propping up traditional clubs is absolutely not the way to go, I'm sorry but even in the games pomp over 60 years ago this failed to get the sport further than the M62 and the odd bit of national coverage, what makes you think chucking more money and effort is going to change that?

With all due respect these areas are are high in C2 D E social classes, that's not a pop or being pompous, this is simply fact. This fact means high profile/monied companies (and the media) are not really interested purely just on that demographic basis of who tend to follow the sport. If we want the game to gain more interest and move forward both nationally and internationally then looking back is not the solution.

Why do we continually have this discussion, it's like people are blind to the facts and how the modern world works, still stuck in the dustant past which is why the sport has gone backwards massively in the last 30 years.

[Big Picture]

20 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

the "history of failure", can you expand on that comment? You're comparing apples with starfish, the chance for an expansion club to survive and flourish in the 1980s were stupidly low. The clubs that did spring up and went on for a while did so despite the RFL and the circumstances of sod all money in the game and the whole 80s/90s thing in the UK.

Your traditional clubs have had over a 100 years, had their go, done well in some instances but are no longer a name within the sport, dropped to much lower divisions or even disappeared. Bradford for instance have had three resurrections after going belly up and that is supposedly in the absolute heart of the sport.

Propping up traditional clubs is absolutely not the way to go, I'm sorry but even in the games pomp over 60 years ago this failed to get the sport further than the M62 and the odd bit of national coverage, what makes you think chucking more money and effort is going to change that?

With all due respect these areas are are high in C2 D E social classes, that's not a pop or being pompous, this is simply fact. This fact means high profile/monied companies (and the media) are not really interested purely just on that demographic basis of who tend to follow the sport. If we want the game to gain more interest and move forward both nationally and internationally then looking back is not the solution.

Why do we continually have this discussion, it's like people are blind to the facts and how the modern world works, still stuck in the dustant past which is why the sport has gone backwards massively in the last 30 years.

That's exactly why progress can only come from a whole new organization outside the existing structure so it's not held back by the small-time attitudes of yesteryear which are so embedded in both the RFL and SL.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

That's exactly why progress can only come from a whole new organization outside the existing structure so it's not held back by the small-time attitudes of yesteryear which are so embedded in both the RFL and SL.

Most definitely, the powerful chairmen of the 50/60/70s held back the sport massively, they were your typical insular Northern type, they weren't interested in expansion because they got what they wanted from the sport within their own enclave, they couldn't see beyond the end of their noses for the most part. Eddie Waring was head and shoulders above these types.

You only need look at how the GB team were selected when I first started watching the sport in the late 70s/early 80s, old farts picking old plodders from all the same big name/more powerful teams, no wonder we got our arris kicked by the ockers in such spectacular fashion!

Even now the RFl and SL are small time thinkers, we know the RFL has at least £10M in its coffers according to their financial statement, we know that the remuneratio n for the people running the sport has been a disgrace for decades, thieves like Woods been some of the worst. it's all heartland mentality and it's been killing us and will continue to kill us if things don't change drastically. We have some changes but it's often glacial and simply nowhere near enough or change for change sake in some instances, worse change that is a complete and utter failure that does long lasting damage to the sport at all avenues.

[yipyee]

Typical either or attitude.

It can be both.

Go and tell Toronto to pack up their beer rents and take their money away. We want to concentrate on small northern towns.

Tell London to stop their youth production focus.

Tell Manchester to not bother...(They did)

The problem with the smaller clubs though is that there needs to be someone in league 1 and the championship. And as you point out York know where they are and what they need to do to get to where they want to be

 

[Big Picture]

7 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Most definitely, the powerful chairmen of the 50/60/70s held back the sport massively, they were your typical insular Northern type, they weren't interested in expansion because they got what they wanted from the sport within their own enclave, they couldn't see beyond the end of their noses for the most part. Eddie Waring was head and shoulders above these types.

You only need look at how the GB team were selected when I first started watching the sport in the late 70s/early 80s, old farts picking old plodders from all the same big name/more powerful teams, no wonder we got our arris kicked by the ockers in such spectacular fashion!

Even now the RFl and SL are small time thinkers, we know the RFL has at least £10M in its coffers according to their financial statement, we know that the remuneratio n for the people running the sport has been a disgrace for decades, thieves like Woods been some of the worst. it's all heartland mentality and it's been killing us and will continue to kill us if things don't change drastically. We have some changes but it's often glacial and simply nowhere near enough or change for change sake in some instances, worse change that is a complete and utter failure that does long lasting damage to the sport at all avenues.

If they have that sort of money in the bank, it beggars belief that they wanted Toronto and Toulouse to pay what they asked to be in the Challenge Cup!

[Eddie]

50 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

the "history of failure", can you expand on that comment? You're comparing apples with starfish, 

Yeah I was thinking about Paris, N Wales (original), London (Harlequins era) -  big money moves to attempt to expand into new areas with little investment in grass roots (unlike Newcastle or London Broncos now for example), they all failed. Not sure how I was comparing apples with Starfish but fair enough if I was. 

[Man of Kent]

Expansion in the heartlands. 

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Typical either or attitude.

It can be both.

Go and tell Toronto to pack up their beer rents and take their money away. We want to concentrate on small northern towns.

Tell London to stop their youth production focus.

Tell Manchester to not bother...(They did)

The problem with the smaller clubs though is that there needs to be someone in league 1 and the championship. And as you point out York know where they are and what they need to do to get to where they want to be

 

I’d love it if it was both, and I deeply hope Toronto succeed, but my vague question / musing was if it is either/or, which is the better option. 

[kev p]

Investing in the grass roots is the not way forward, wherever they come from. No point pumping money into a small club in the heartlands just because of geography. If clubs invest in youth policy help them. Men’s leagues seem to be dying, hence the youth policy to help revive it. Otherwise the whole game will go.

[ojx]

How about expansion within traditional areas. Judging from the crowd demographics, traditional clubs have not engaged with the more diverse nature of the modern communities they live in. A massive missed opportunity.

[yipyee]

9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’d love it if it was both, and I deeply hope Toronto succeed, but my vague question / musing was if it is either/or, which is the better option. 

Both

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, kev p said:

Investing in the grass roots is the not way forward, wherever they come from. No point pumping money into a small club in the heartlands just because of geography. If clubs invest in youth policy help them. Men’s leagues seem to be dying, hence the youth policy to help revive it. Otherwise the whole game will go.

Do you play RL ? , How old are you ?

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yeah I was thinking about Paris, N Wales (original), London (Harlequins era) -  big money moves to attempt to expand into new areas with little investment in grass roots (unlike Newcastle or London Broncos now for example), they all failed. Not sure how I was comparing apples with Starfish but fair enough if I was. 

clubs starting up 130/140 years ago compared to 80s/90s are not the same thing/environment, RFL and long term support and trying to shoe-horn clubs to run before they can walk does not work in saturated markets and never will. You say big money but they really weren't.  big money for a truly national league in the UK is triple digit millions a year, for a London club to really have some draw and get their tentacles in would need £20M+ a year investment but I reckon it's too late by 20-25 years.

[The Parksider]

9 hours ago, Eddie said:

Given the history of failure of expansion in the UK  might it be better to focus on reviving traditional clubs and helping them thrive to get more people interested in the game, instead of chasing the dream of establishing RL in uninterested big cities? Anyone who thinks there will ever be an RL team in for example Liverpool, attracting more than a few hundred fans is far wide of the mark. However York have shown what can be done with a lot of initiative and hard work. 

Naturally this all takes people willing to do it, and a lot of money, but far less I expect than setting up new clubs from scratch in places where nobody cares........................

The only money available to invest in creating a club from scratch or reviving a traditional club is private money from individuals.

8 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

 All clubs should receive support and there are benefits for everyone if expansion clubs are helped to grow AND the heartlands supported. 

All clubs do receive support limited to the value of their share of the sky contract, over that it is up to private individuals to invest.

The reality you completely ignore is the more you share it out the less clubs get and the less they can do, the reality you are ignoring is once the the £200 Million SKY give us stops you will see that there has been no growth, and if Championships can't get a new deal there will be serious decline.

7 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Propping up traditional clubs is absolutely not the way to go, I'm sorry but even in the games pomp over 60 years ago this failed to get the sport further than the M62 and the odd bit of national coverage, what makes you think chucking more money and effort is going to change that?

It isn't going to change it, but the new SKY deal will help to preserve it. Propping up Traditional clubs is what has kept the game alive for 100 years.

So what's your "way to go"? How many £Millions have been pumped into London since 1980? They play at a wedding venue before small crowds 40 years on? How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto for no return at all. Nobody wants to play there and no TV company wants to invest.

Open your eyes and mind and understand we "succeed" because we have built an RL culture in the north just about big enough to dominate Rugby Union along the M62, it will take every last penny we can get just to keep that alive. That doesn't make me a traditionalist, only a realist.

[Manxmanc]

35 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

The only money available to invest in creating a club from scratch or reviving a traditional club is private money from individuals.

All clubs do receive support limited to the value of their share of the sky contract, over that it is up to private individuals to invest.

The reality you completely ignore is the more you share it out the less clubs get and the less they can do, the reality you are ignoring is once the the £200 Million SKY give us stops you will see that there has been no growth, and if Championships can't get a new deal there will be serious decline.

It isn't going to change it, but the new SKY deal will help to preserve it. Propping up Traditional clubs is what has kept the game alive for 100 years.

So what's your "way to go"? How many £Millions have been pumped into London since 1980? They play at a wedding venue before small crowds 40 years on? How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto for no return at all. Nobody wants to play there and no TV company wants to invest.

Open your eyes and mind and understand we "succeed" because we have built an RL culture in the north just about big enough to dominate Rugby Union along the M62, it will take every last penny we can get just to keep that alive. That doesn't make me a traditionalist, only a realist.

I'm very much a believer in looking back at history to inform future decisions. That said, there are significant differences between the environment of 40 years ago and now.

In London's case, it might be argued that the road is established and nothing will change. On the other hand, the potential is absolutely enormous. A league involving Toronto, New York and London would be attractive to backers and supporters.

Without intending to be unduly critical, you do focus on the past and present, but seem less keen to consider even the possibility of favourable future outcomes. Given free licence,, nay being devil-may-care, your own vision for RL in the UK, perhaps even in the northern hemisphere, in 5 or 10 years time, would be of interest to readers.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

53 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

The only money available to invest in creating a club from scratch or reviving a traditional club is private money from individuals.

All clubs do receive support limited to the value of their share of the sky contract, over that it is up to private individuals to invest.

The reality you completely ignore is the more you share it out the less clubs get and the less they can do, the reality you are ignoring is once the the £200 Million SKY give us stops you will see that there has been no growth, and if Championships can't get a new deal there will be serious decline.

It isn't going to change it, but the new SKY deal will help to preserve it. Propping up Traditional clubs is what has kept the game alive for 100 years.

So what's your "way to go"? How many £Millions have been pumped into London since 1980? They play at a wedding venue before small crowds 40 years on? How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto for no return at all. Nobody wants to play there and no TV company wants to invest.

Open your eyes and mind and understand we "succeed" because we have built an RL culture in the north just about big enough to dominate Rugby Union along the M62, it will take every last penny we can get just to keep that alive. That doesn't make me a traditionalist, only a realist.

How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto? None, $0, zero, they have cost us nothing.

Toronto haven’t taken a single penny in central funding and paid away clubs travel costs for 3 years.

All the costs of running Toronto Wolfpack have been covered by David Argyle and his consortium. Surely the fact they are willing to invest millions of their own money shows that expansion is the right thing to do, they sure as hell wouldn’t of invent that money into Featherstone, Oldham or Hunslet.

If we have no expansion we have no additional money from the likes of David Argyle and we’d be a lot worse off for it. 

[Eddie]

15 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto? None, $0, zero, they have cost us nothing.

Toronto haven’t taken a single penny in central funding and paid away clubs travel costs for 3 years.

All the costs of running Toronto Wolfpack have been covered by David Argyle and his consortium. Surely the fact they are willing to invest millions of their own money shows that expansion is the right thing to do, they sure as hell wouldn’t of invent that money into Featherstone, Oldham or Hunslet.

If we have no expansion we have no additional money from the likes of David Argyle and we’d be a lot worse off for it. 

Completely agree (I meant UK expansion in my original post). The most annoying thing about it is that toronto are doing things in spite of the other clubs rather than with their support, I seriously don’t know why they bother given the adversity they face, but am glad that they do. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

How many $$Millions have been pumped into Toronto? None, $0, zero, they have cost us nothing.

Toronto haven’t taken a single penny in central funding and paid away clubs travel costs for 3 years.

All the costs of running Toronto Wolfpack have been covered by David Argyle and his consortium. Surely the fact they are willing to invest millions of their own money shows that expansion is the right thing to do, they sure as hell wouldn’t of invent that money into Featherstone, Oldham or Hunslet.

If we have no expansion we have no additional money from the likes of David Argyle and we’d be a lot worse off for it. 

Always enjoyed the Toronto idea, games and razzamatazz

However one of the Podcasts (might have been the Total RL one) this week pointed out what might happen if they get to the grand final

I was there for Catalan's CC win last year and it was great but Wembley was half full. 

Maybe the first year it happened at Old Trafford the neutrals would come but let's say they keep doing it.... Might we end up with OT not being filled for the GF? 

Again... I'll reemphasise I quite like TW but this might be a stumbling block 

 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

5 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Always enjoyed the Toronto idea, games and razzamatazz

However one of the Podcasts (might have been the Total RL one) this week pointed out what might happen if they get to the grand final

I was there for Catalan's CC win last year and it was great but Wembley was half full. 

Maybe the first year it happened at Old Trafford the neutrals would come but let's say they keep doing it.... Might we end up with OT not being filled for the GF? 

Again... I'll reemphasise I quite like TW but this might be a stumbling block 

 

What happens if London, Salford, Wakefield or Huddersfield ever reach a Challenge Cup or Grand Final? Yes they have in the past but they no longer have the support they used to get. 

We cant have a business model that relies on the same few big clubs always competing in every final.

[Adelaide Tiger]

14 hours ago, Eddie said:

There’s obviously a lot of focus on expansion to breathe new life into RL, and rightly so, but I rarely hear anything about helping declining clubs in traditional RL areas.

Given the history of failure of expansion in the UK (with a handful of happy exceptions) might it be better to focus on reviving traditional clubs and helping them thrive to get more people interested in the game, instead of chasing the dream of establishing RL in uninterested big cities? It might be an easier, less costly and more worthwhile way of doing it. I’m talking Barrow, Whitehaven, Workington, Oldham, Rochdale, Doncaster etc, areas with big RL traditions and plenty of people, but floundering clubs. 

Anyone who thinks there will ever be an RL team in for example Liverpool, attracting more than a few hundred fans is far wide of the mark. However York have shown what can be done with a lot of initiative and hard work. 

Naturally this all takes people willing to do it, and a lot of money, but far less I expect than setting up new clubs from scratch in places where nobody cares.

 

This topic comes up every so often and some people argue that we must ensure struggling, traditional clubs are thriving before expansion should take place.  But what does ‘thriving’ mean?

If ‘thriving’ means waiting for all the clubs in the Championship and C1 to be financially sound, have a strong off-field operation, attract over 3,000 spectators etc. before we look at expansion then IMHO the game will slowly shrink as we are not offering anything different to those that invest money into our sport.

Conversely, we cannot put all our energy into focussing solely on expansion as the saviour to our game.  Expansion - either inside or outside of the UK - done correctly should be beneficial to the game in the long term but not at the expense of ‘traditional’ areas.  Expansion may not work, but if it does then it may be a catalyst to improve the visibility and profile of the game to people in traditional and new areas.

Therefore the game needs to have a strategic plan that embraces planned expansion and if this brings an increase in profile, it may also bring in additional income and some of that income should be ring fenced to promoting the game in both heartland and newly identified areas.