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Tony Smith - bad taste

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1 minute ago, Padge said:

But the rules are there, they are not enforced but they exist. Coaches weazle around them so I think the RFL have just given up. The last time I can think of them being applied was in the Long Gleeson fiasco when Saints put out the academy against the Bulls, oh dear Saints again. 

I don't think the rule is there forbidding the selection of a weakened team.  The rules state you must maintain a squad and the team you select must endeavour to win the game. It does not cover game day selection. 

It would be interesting to see what the rules were in previous years.

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Haha the team that played against (we never played any weak teams) Hull KR. 

St Helens: Coote; Makinson, Naiqama, Costello, Grace; Lomax, Fages; Lees, Roby, Walmsley, Peyroux, Taia, Knowles.

Interchanges: Paulo, Amor, Ashworth, Welsby.

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Again against Hull KR. 

Starting 13: Lachlan Coote, Tommy Makinson, Kevin Naiqama, Jack Welsby, Regan Grace, Jonny Lomax, Theo Fages, Matthew Lees, Aaron Smith, Luke Thompson, James Bentley, Dom Peyroux, Morgan Knowles.

Interchanges: Joseph Paulo, Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook, Kyle Amor, Jack Ashworth.

 

i actually think the team above that played against London was stronger than this team. 

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1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

Again against Hull KR. 

Starting 13: Lachlan Coote, Tommy Makinson, Kevin Naiqama, Jack Welsby, Regan Grace, Jonny Lomax, Theo Fages, Matthew Lees, Aaron Smith, Luke Thompson, James Bentley, Dom Peyroux, Morgan Knowles.

Interchanges: Joseph Paulo, Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook, Kyle Amor, Jack Ashworth.

 

i actually think the team above that played against London was stronger than this team. 

Smith's selective memory must have forgot about that.

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20 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Whether it's the right time for Smith to air his views or whether he should have just let it lie is one thing but I agree with him about the two London Saints games.

I am surprised that so many people are ok with Saints fielding an under strength team and losing. Maybe once is ok but twice against the same team seemed unfair to the other teams to me.

And to clarify, I was hoping for London to stay up.

An independent critisism or comment might be pointed at the logic of how the loop fixtures are presented.  I offer no opinion myself as I cannot immediately review how it was worked out.

Otherwise I think Saints were being too cute with their selections.  

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https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2004/05/29/smith-happy-with-ali-show/

2004 (relegation in structure)

"I made a lot of changes and rotated players around and it was hard to get any continuity. "We were disjointed and basically gave over too much ball but it was the type of game where you could experiment a little. There was no need to win by a hundred."

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5 minutes ago, BenGilesRL said:

https://www.therhinos.co.uk/2004/05/29/smith-happy-with-ali-show/

2004 (relegation in structure)

"I made a lot of changes and rotated players around and it was hard to get any continuity. "We were disjointed and basically gave over too much ball but it was the type of game where you could experiment a little. There was no need to win by a hundred."

Cant have made that many changes they won 34-6 😂

So we have gone back 15 years to highlight TS hypocrisy in a game they won.

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14 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Again against Hull KR. 

Starting 13: Lachlan Coote, Tommy Makinson, Kevin Naiqama, Jack Welsby, Regan Grace, Jonny Lomax, Theo Fages, Matthew Lees, Aaron Smith, Luke Thompson, James Bentley, Dom Peyroux, Morgan Knowles.

Interchanges: Joseph Paulo, Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook, Kyle Amor, Jack Ashworth.

Team that played London... I know which one I would rather face

1Jack Welsby

2Adam Swift

3Matthew Costello

4Josh Simm

5Regan Grace

6Joseph Paulo

7Danny Richardson

8Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook 

9Aaron Smith

10Matthew Lees

11Joe Batchelor

12James Bentley

13Morgan Knowles

14Kyle Amor

15Jack Ashworth

16Josh Eaves

17Callum Hazzard

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16 minutes ago, HKRBob said:

Cant have made that many changes they won 34-6 😂

So we have gone back 15 years to highlight TS hypocrisy in a game they won.

Read the thread, its been highlighted many times. 

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31 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't think the rule is there forbidding the selection of a weakened team.  The rules state you must maintain a squad and the team you select must endeavour to win the game. It does not cover game day selection. 

It would be interesting to see what the rules were in previous years.

It used to be you must put out your strongest available team. Then coaches got sicknotes off club doctors so they could rest players. We know the rules are there, we know, the clubs and coaches kow what it means. Nail somebody with it stop this nonsense. 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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22 minutes ago, HKRBob said:

Team that played London... I know which one I would rather face

1Jack Welsby

2Adam Swift

3Matthew Costello

4Josh Simm

5Regan Grace

6Joseph Paulo

7Danny Richardson

8Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook 

9Aaron Smith

10Matthew Lees

11Joe Batchelor

12James Bentley

13Morgan Knowles

14Kyle Amor

15Jack Ashworth

16Josh Eaves

17Callum Hazzard

No ones disputing that was a weakened team I was comparing the team that played HullKR to the first match against London. 

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32 minutes ago, Damien said:

Read the thread, its been highlighted many times. 

I have read the thread, have you? There were a couple of instances linked under the licensing era, but that doesn't really dispute TS suggestion that it is a real problem when relegation is at stake.

Whilst I aren't saying there will not be any instances that can prove his hypocrisy, the only link I saw under P&R was the one from 15 years ago that they won. 

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27 minutes ago, HKRBob said:

I have read the thread, have you? There were a couple of instances linked under the licensing era, but that doesn't really dispute TS suggestion that it is a real problem when relegation is at stake.

Whilst I aren't saying there will not be any instances that can prove his hypocrisy, the only link I saw under P&R was the one from 15 years ago that they won. 

Yes I have. Take out his time as England coach, his time when he was out of the game and when he hasn't been in charge of a struggling team like Hull KR then there are only a few timeframes that are applicable to p&r. One of which has been shown and of course only one is needed to show his hypocrisy. Winning or losing does not matter, he played a weakened team.

Throughout his career there are many incidents. More than enough to prove his hypocrisy in this. If it was easier to search on the internet from his Leeds days then I'm certain there would be countless more, as there was in 2004. Now he is at a struggling team he now has a completely different outlook to when he was in charge of Leeds or Warrington.

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I use to have a lot of respect for Tony Smith before this, and now i just regard him him as another whinging Aussie.

He can expect a lot of verbals when the Robins play at Saints next year, and possibly other clubs.

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22 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I use to have a lot of respect for Tony Smith before this, and now i just regard him him as another whinging Aussie.

He can expect a lot of verbals when the Robins play at Saints next year, and possibly other clubs.

I wonder how many Saints players had bets on as M. Mouse from Clock Face and the like as soon as they knew the team. It least they have learned not to use their own names.

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Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

I use to have a lot of respect for Tony Smith before this, and now i just regard him him as another whinging Aussie.

He can expect a lot of verbals when the Robins play at Saints next year, and possibly other clubs.

The St Helens club appears to be coming off the rails a bit over the past few months. 

They've a lot more to not like the sight of Tony Smith for than these comments. 

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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

I use to have a lot of respect for Tony Smith before this, and now i just regard him him as another whinging Aussie.

He can expect a lot of verbals when the Robins play at Saints next year, and possibly other clubs.

Smith became a naturalized British citizen on 8 September 2008 at a ceremony in Huddersfield.

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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What about the unfair advantage that Northern clubs can bring in a load of loans but we can't? They had a chance to be safe last week and bottled it. Hope they go down next season.

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On 15/09/2019 at 03:18, redjonn said:

P&R has a place in our sport, but it has to be fair with each club expected to put out their strongest team each game. Plus all clubs playing the same fixtures as the others. Otherwise it is harder to argue that the weakest team are the team relegated or promoted, especially if we are by means of a lowest denominator salary cap trying to even out the competition so all clubs are as likely to succeed or fail.  Otherwise a case can be made that a factor was either due to an unfair fixture list (loop matches) or weakened opposition teams (as in the 2nd saints weakened team to play London).

On a wider front I pays my money in the hope of seeing the best teams playing, why should I bother if other teams take the same approach...

In the modern game with it being so fast and big powerful athletes its just not possible to send out your strongest team every week as players have always got injured, but players need to rest as well from bumps and bruises at times and mental fatigue.

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13 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

In the modern game with it being so fast and big powerful athletes its just not possible to send out your strongest team every week as players have always got injured, but players need to rest as well from bumps and bruises at times and mental fatigue.

Strange how so many of the little petals get injured the the two weeks before a big game.

Edited by Padge

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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On 15/09/2019 at 01:14, Clogiron said:

And yet another moaning Aussie coach emerges, there all happy enough to take the money when they can't get a gig back home, then whinge about the system when they or their players aren't upto the job. Time a few people took a good, hard look in the mirror, I haven't heard Danny Ward bleating about relegation and as for the rubbish about weakend teams, should games be postponed if one team has a number of injuries because a relegation threatened team played them earlier in the season when they were at full strength?

You play what is in front of you, Smith et al should look at the amount of times their teams have lost games when in front😑

He's a British citizen. The UK is his home...

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19 hours ago, HKRBob said:

Cant have made that many changes they won 34-6 😂

So we have gone back 15 years to highlight TS hypocrisy in a game they won.

The result is irrelevant - as the outcome isn’t decided til after the teams are named. The coach put out a team he felt could still win the game exactly the same as Holbrook. Also - as it could have an impact on who is relegated not only by pts but pts difference. Winning by a hundred would effectively mean they would have to get another point to finish above the other team if involved down the bottom. 

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On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 17:17, Saint 1 said:

 

 

First game against Hull KR we rested Percival, Walmsley, Roby and Taia. London took advantage of us resting players, Hull KR weren't good enough to do so. It's strange to argue that Saints shouldn't be allowed to rest players for the sake of helping out teams who haven't been good enough. 

Exactly - Smith has conveniently forgotten Saints didn't put out a full strength team against HKR either this year, but HKR still weren't good enough to get a win where as London were.

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This is captain Juncker speaking. The EU gravy train is about to enter Brussels, so will all Brits please exit at the next stop

To all remaining passengers, thank you for your continued custom and contributions to my pension fund

Kind Regards - YOUR PRESIDENT !

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Before I type the rest of this post, I don't want people to think it is anti-Saints.  I would say the same about any club as I think the integrity of the competition is important.

Looking at the Operational Rules, B1:11 states the following under the section of 'Full Strength':

Each club shall take all reasonable and permissible measures throughout each Match to ensure that its team gives its best efforts in an attempt to win the Match and/or of obtaining the best possible score in the Match.  All Players and Officials shall take all reasonable and permissible measures and give their best efforts in an attempt to win each Match and/or of obtaining the best possible score in each match.

https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2019-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html#p=43

In an interview before the second London match, Justin Holbrook stated the following:

“I am going to make a number of changes again this week off the back of knowing we don’t get a week off. I think there are nine Super League clubs next week who will get a week off, but we are doing well in the Challenge Cup and it is our biggest game of the year. So I will make a number of changes because of those reasons.”

https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2019/07/18/watch-holbrook-will-play-youngsters-vs-london/

He has effectively said that he is giving his first team a week off as all of the other clubs are getting a week off in the semi final week.

My question is has Justin Holbrook taken all reasonable and permissible measures and given his best efforts to win the match against London?

I am not arguing whether he was managing his team appropriately, or whether he and his team have 'earned' the right to play a weaker team, I am asking if he has made all reasonable attempts to win the game as laid out in the Operational Rules?

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