Israel Folau (Merged threads)

[Wellsy4HullFC]

46 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Will the Super League club owners be organising a Pride Day,with lots of rainbow colours,when Jamaica play in the World Cup,next year,given the appalling record of homophobia,and worse,in that country?

Just to demonstrate how strongly they feel the sport should be in condemnation against any person/country involved in attacks against homosexuals,in this day and age,and not some time after their death should they arrive at a place that the critics don't believe exists   .https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/2005-ukait-168

 

https://whyy.org/segments/after-fleeing-violence-in-jamaica-gay-man-seeks-refuge-in-america/

 

 

 

 

I don't think Jamaica RL make the laws in Jamaica, therefore I'm not quite sure what any, demonstrating, protesting or sanctions would achieve.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, RayCee said:

I would agree with the first point you make. Morally for many is selective, regardless of the context. 

I have been wrong before and I will be again.

At the end of the day all we are offering on here is our opinions.

[Tommygilf]

16 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't think Jamaica RL make the laws in Jamaica, therefore I'm not quite sure what any, demonstrating, protesting or sanctions would achieve.

Indeed. If anyone fancies a listen to I think the 5 Live podcast with the JRLA chief from when they played England last year he was saying how they were working to overcome misconceptions about homosexuality and contact sport. If the previous poster is bothered about the plight of homosexuals in Jamaica then helping the RL there grow would be a step in the right direction.

[gingerjon]

19 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Will the Super League club owners be organising a Pride Day,with lots of rainbow colours,when Jamaica play in the World Cup,next year,given the appalling record of homophobia,and worse,in that country?

Just to demonstrate how strongly they feel the sport should be in condemnation against any person/country involved in attacks against homosexuals,in this day and age,and not some time after their death should they arrive at a place that the critics don't believe exists   .https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/2005-ukait-168

 

https://whyy.org/segments/after-fleeing-violence-in-jamaica-gay-man-seeks-refuge-in-america/

 

 

 

 

I've been on actual protest against Jamaican artists who supported the Jamaican legal position on homosexuality. It was quite a big issue back in the day and one of the reasons why some Jamaican reggae stars were unable to be take advantage of the mini boom in reggae music. You might remember, if you're roughly my generation, Mark Lamarr taking on Shabba Ranks on The Word.

Should I be protesting at Jamaica rugby league matches? Not sure to be honest. The protests against reggae were because those artists were echoing the worst kind of homophobia - our man Shabba had said gays should be crucified for example. The Jamaican rugby league team seem to be a bit more silent on the issue.

(Separately, and I've been doing a little bit of reading before replying, it looks like that whilst the law is still on the books, it is not enforced in any meaningful sense. Jamaica itself remains quite viciously homophobic regardless. In such circumstances, a spot of Pride might not be a bad idea at all.)

[aj1908]

its funny how folau is supposed to be playing tomorrow and nobody in this thread has even mentioned that hes been omitted bc they are too busy repeating over and over and over and over and over and over

 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, aj1908 said:

its funny how folau is supposed to be playing tomorrow and nobody in this thread has even mentioned that hes been omitted bc they are too busy repeating over and over and over and over and over and over

 

Are you being deliberately ironic by continuously posting the same thing about people continually posting the same things?

equally you could stop reading the thread if you are that fed up of it..

[Bleep1673]

Personally I think he should be allowed a bit of leeway, if any gay player has a problem with his religious beliefs, then let them declare their objections, and become openly gay. Given the vitriol against his posts on social media, if player(s) want to come out as LGBTQ, I am sure the Rugby League community, from all teams will support him in any way

 

Not!

 

If an active player was to openly reveal themselves as LGBTQ, then good luck to them, and I hope they will find a bunker to hide in.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 07/02/2020 at 17:23, RayCee said:

Or you missed what I thought was the more likely one. That moral outrage is strangely selectively.

Moral outrage always looks it's brightest when shone across an Internet forum 

In reality most posters who express such feelings will in real life express a more 'meh' attitude 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

43 minutes ago, Bleep1673 said:

Personally I think he should be allowed a bit of leeway, if any gay player has a problem with his religious beliefs, then let them declare their objections, and become openly gay. Given the vitriol against his posts on social media, if player(s) want to come out as LGBTQ, I am sure the Rugby League community, from all teams will support him in any way

 

Not!

 

If an active player was to openly reveal themselves as LGBTQ, then good luck to them, and I hope they will find a bunker to hide in.

 

Short Dress by David  Hesketh, on Flickr

 

[Bleep1673]

3 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

 

One out of how many? There are others who are scared.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Bleep1673 said:

One out of how many? There are others who are scared.

I don't quite get your point?

[Boomer Bang Wool]

Bring Israel back to the NRL

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Moral outrage always looks it's brightest when shone across an Internet forum 

In reality most posters who express such feelings will in real life express a more 'meh' attitude 

What's that based upon? 

[The Daddy]

On 07/02/2020 at 16:59, Angelic Cynic said:

Will the Super League club owners be organising a Pride Day,with lots of rainbow colours,when Jamaica play in the World Cup,next year,given the appalling record of homophobia,and worse,in that country?

Just to demonstrate how strongly they feel the sport should be in condemnation against any person/country involved in attacks against homosexuals,in this day and age,and not some time after their death should they arrive at a place that the critics don't believe exists   .https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/2005-ukait-168

 

https://whyy.org/segments/after-fleeing-violence-in-jamaica-gay-man-seeks-refuge-in-america/

 

 

 

 

Nonsense post. Of all my years being on this site this is up there as one of the most ridiculous 

[Angelic Cynic]

On 07/02/2020 at 17:18, Dunbar said:

 

 

Just so that I am clear as it isn't obvious from your post.

Are you supporting the Super League authorities in their stance against the Falou signing and signalling your desire that they should go further and tackle the issue of homophobia in other countries?

Or.

Are you saying that the signature of Folau is not controversial because there are plenty more instances around the world of homophobia and prejudice?

Or.

(and I suspect this may be the winner) are you introducing a pointless bit of whataboutism rather than discussing the impact the signing of Folau is having on the Super League and the sport of Rugby League in general. 

  I don't have any problem with an individual quoting,or stating from a religious publication,no matter what the written matter may mean,or be understood to mean.

   You may write that anyone calling themselves,or born to call themselves,Angelic Cynic,is bound for hell.

   There is one religion,one I cannot identify,that reckons living on this earth is the hell,before one dies and goes to a 'better' place.

    As a reminder - words don't hurt.

On 08/02/2020 at 12:21, gingerjon said:

I've been on actual protest against Jamaican artists who supported the Jamaican legal position on homosexuality. It was quite a big issue back in the day and one of the reasons why some Jamaican reggae stars were unable to be take advantage of the mini boom in reggae music. You might remember, if you're roughly my generation, Mark Lamarr taking on Shabba Ranks on The Word.

Should I be protesting at Jamaica rugby league matches? Not sure to be honest. The protests against reggae were because those artists were echoing the worst kind of homophobia - our man Shabba had said gays should be crucified for example. The Jamaican rugby league team seem to be a bit more silent on the issue.

(Separately, and I've been doing a little bit of reading before replying, it looks like that whilst the law is still on the books, it is not enforced in any meaningful sense. Jamaica itself remains quite viciously homophobic regardless. In such circumstances, a spot of Pride might not be a bad idea at all.)

   Mr Strange,the UK Rapper has come out as gay.I'm not certain of his origins - but it may get interesting should a grime artist come out as gay - given the propensity for violence over other trivial matters such as post codes.

   If only sport could escape politics and religion...and,of course,sexual orientation.

   https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/09/mr-strange-blackbox-drill-rap-interview-coming-out-masculinity-toxic/

On 07/02/2020 at 17:47, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't think Jamaica RL make the laws in Jamaica, therefore I'm not quite sure what any, demonstrating, protesting or sanctions would achieve.

   I don't think Israel Folau was around when the Bible was written.I don't think he imagines himself as God and in charge of the afterlife he believes in.I don't see what any demonstrating,protesting,or sanctions would achieve.

  The scientists will be able to explain the weather.I'm sure it is not God's wrath.Scientists had posters put on the side of London buses telling anyone who was interested that there was no God.All is well.

[RMBJ]

15 hours ago, Bleep1673 said:

Personally I think he should be allowed a bit of leeway, if any gay player has a problem with his religious beliefs, then let them declare their objections, and become openly gay. Given the vitriol against his posts on social media, if player(s) want to come out as LGBTQ, I am sure the Rugby League community, from all teams will support him in any way

 

Not!

 

If an active player was to openly reveal themselves as LGBTQ, then good luck to them, and I hope they will find a bunker to hide in.

 

Short Dress by David  Hesketh, on Flickr

Are there any gay rugby league teams? There are quite a few of them who play in the RFU league structure. Kings Cross Steelers are probably the best known but I think there are at least a few others. There are also gay RU clubs in Australia.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I'm not sure if you've intentionally tried to miss the point so many times, or you just have failed to see it, but I'll go through a bit at a time to help you see it more because some of what you have written here is either completely irrelevant and/or otherwise pretty ignorant of the issue.

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I don't have any problem with an individual quoting,or stating from a religious publication,no matter what the written matter may mean,or be understood to mean.

   You may write that anyone calling themselves,or born to call themselves,Angelic Cynic,is bound for hell.

You are not a historically discriminated group, so your attempt to empathize has missed the mark completely. There is more to it then just a bit of name calling, and to trivialise it as such displays mass ignorance.

The point of it being religious text is irrelevant. Anyone thinking it's okay just because it is "religion" is part of a much bigger problem. Religion shouldn't give you free reign.

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

There is one religion,one I cannot identify,that reckons living on this earth is the hell,before one dies and goes to a 'better' place.

I don't see the point? There is no discrimination here?

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

As a reminder - words don't hurt.

Ideas can hurt, even kill, many.

Again, a massively ignorant comment.

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

If only sport could escape politics and religion...and,of course,sexual orientation.

Amateur sport perhaps. Professional sport - a business - not so much.

 

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I don't think Israel Folau was around when the Bible was written.I don't think he imagines himself as God and in charge of the afterlife he believes in.I don't see what any demonstrating,protesting,or sanctions would achieve.

An incredibly weak attempt at a counter argument.

Israel Folau is responsible for Israel Folau. He is responsible for what he believes as an adult and what he says as an adult, and as such the consequences of what he peddles lays with him. He is not responsible for what is written in the Bible and no one has even suggested that. He is responsible for his own interpretations of it and how he spreads those interpretations.

Jamaica RL is not responsible for Jamaica the country. They are not peddling their ideals publicly (as far as I've seen anyway). They have no responsibility for them.

The two are completely and utterly ridiculous. I'm sure you already knew that though.

9 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

The scientists will be able to explain the weather.I'm sure it is not God's wrath.Scientists had posters put on the side of London buses telling anyone who was interested that there was no God.All is well.

Again, what is the relevance here? Are you trying to compare saying there is no God (an opinion that discriminates no one) with homosexuals deserving to go to Hell (an opinion that discriminates quite strongly a particular group)?

 

The summary in getting from the interactions you're having on this topic is that it doesn't affect you, and you don't think if you were in their shoes it would, so it's not really an issue. It just shows a lack of understanding of the issue quite frankly. It's more than just someone saying some words.

[headtackle]

Quite ironic that Israel Folau is getting pilloried for expressing his views and opinions by fans from towns and cities without the greatest record on tolerance.

I have stood on most terraces over the years and heard a colourful variety of racist, sexist and homophobic comments go unchallenged. Indeed I too have been part of a large crowd waving a limp wrist at Wigan supporters chanting "Wigan Wigan". Off the terraces many interesting comments regularly made about Islam, Muslims, Gypsies, Pikeys etc etc 

There is a lot of pot calling kettle black here aside from jealousy. The line that some clubs want to draw also seems very convenient and rather flexible

If Israel wants to quote the bible isn't there a bit about "let he without sin cast the first stone". Wouldn't be that many stepping forward I would guess

Let him play but just make it clear that if he does it again he is gone.

 

[GUBRATS]

28 minutes ago, headtackle said:

Quite ironic that Israel Folau is getting pilloried for expressing his views and opinions by fans from towns and cities without the greatest record on tolerance.

I have stood on most terraces over the years and heard a colourful variety of racist, sexist and homophobic comments go unchallenged. Indeed I too have been part of a large crowd waving a limp wrist at Wigan supporters chanting "Wigan Wigan". Off the terraces many interesting comments regularly made about Islam, Muslims, Gypsies, Pikeys etc etc 

There is a lot of pot calling kettle black here aside from jealousy. The line that some clubs want to draw also seems very convenient and rather flexible

If Israel wants to quote the bible isn't there a bit about "let he without sin cast the first stone". Wouldn't be that many stepping forward I would guess

Let him play but just make it clear that if he does it again he is gone.

 

All you put here has been on here so many times already HT , but yes you are right , he knows the deal , play RL and keep his beliefs to himself , or he will be on his bike 

That should be the end of it 

[RMBJ]

30 minutes ago, headtackle said:

Quite ironic that Israel Folau is getting pilloried for expressing his views and opinions by fans from towns and cities without the greatest record on tolerance.

I have stood on most terraces over the years and heard a colourful variety of racist, sexist and homophobic comments go unchallenged. Indeed I too have been part of a large crowd waving a limp wrist at Wigan supporters chanting "Wigan Wigan". Off the terraces many interesting comments regularly made about Islam, Muslims, Gypsies, Pikeys etc etc 

There is a lot of pot calling kettle black here aside from jealousy. The line that some clubs want to draw also seems very convenient and rather flexible

If Israel wants to quote the bible isn't there a bit about "let he without sin cast the first stone". Wouldn't be that many stepping forward I would guess

Let him play but just make it clear that if he does it again he is gone.

 

That is exactly what happened when he was employed by Australian RU. 

It's not a case of if but when he says something bigoted.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, RMBJ said:

That is exactly what happened when he was employed by Australian RU. 

It's not a case of if but when he says something bigoted.

And WHEN he does , he's gone , but till then , he's here to play RL 

[RMBJ]

24 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

And WHEN he does , he's gone , but till then , he's here to play RL 

If Tommy Robinson was a very very good rugby league player would it also be ok to employ him in a SL team? 

 

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, RMBJ said:

If Tommy Robinson was a very very good rugby league player would it also be ok to employ him in a SL team? 

 

It would be quite funny to watch

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, headtackle said:

Quite ironic that Israel Folau is getting pilloried for expressing his views and opinions by fans from towns and cities without the greatest record on tolerance.

What town, city, club, country, etc is completely irrelevant, so how can it be ironic? Are you only allowed to speak out against intolerance if you are from a tolerant place and support a tolerant club? Seems a cop out to me.

 

1 hour ago, headtackle said:

I have stood on most terraces over the years and heard a colourful variety of racist, sexist and homophobic comments go unchallenged. Indeed I too have been part of a large crowd waving a limp wrist at Wigan supporters chanting "Wigan Wigan". Off the terraces many interesting comments regularly made about Islam, Muslims, Gypsies, Pikeys etc etc 

There is a lot of pot calling kettle black here aside from jealousy. The line that some clubs want to draw also seems very convenient and rather flexible

Challenging a group of usually drunk adult males on a rugby terrace is hardly going to achieve much other than putting yourself in potential danger.

This isn't one of those "you wouldn't do it to their face" type arguments, is it?

Tolerance of homophobia and sexism have vastly changed thankfully over the last 20 years to be more in line with that of racism (as it should be), but none of those battles are won yet.

What should not be classed as discrimination is usually based on the convenience of the discriminator.

1 hour ago, headtackle said:

If Israel wants to quote the bible isn't there a bit about "let he without sin cast the first stone". Wouldn't be that many stepping forward I would guess

We're not the ones choosing to quote the Bible. I won't be using the Bible as evidence to argue a point any time soon.

2 hours ago, headtackle said:

Let him play but just make it clear that if he does it again he is gone.

I would follow that mantra if he had retracted his words and apologised. He hasn't. Therefore it isn't a case of forgive and move on. He is still actively making that mistake - unlike say Zac Hardaker, who made a comment, apologised, was educated and returned. I haven't seen Folau do any of that and that's because he doesn't think he has to (which is the problem).

[kiyan]

On ‎07‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 17:47, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I don't think Jamaica RL make the laws in Jamaica, therefore I'm not quite sure what any, demonstrating, protesting or sanctions would achieve.

RU did not make laws in South Africa, but people demonstrated, protested, enforced sanctions - what did that achieve?