League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

Hull KR are opening their new Craven Streat which will have food stalls and live bands at next Fridays game. As well as matchdays it will be available throughout the week too. It could well have been inspired by what Toronto had at their ground. Clubs could have face painting for the kids and have players who aren’t playing chatting to fans as they are coming in and at grounds where the car park is a decent size have American style tailgating in the summer months when the weather is good.

People now want an “experience” when they go somewhere, if someone goes to Sainsburys to buy a tin of peas they will complain if they think the experience wasn’t upto scratch, so that means game day has to be more than just 80 minutes of rugby.

Yes whatever LR, call me an old fart or whatever but I have been going doing my thing since 1960 as a kid with my dad, then as the years passed when I got yo drinking age I adopted what I described - pub, match, pub, I will not change now, but I will applaud from afar anything that can get more bodies along to live RL, just not for me.

[Tommygilf]

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes whatever LR, call me an old fart or whatever but I have been going doing my thing since 1960 as a kid with my dad, then as the years passed when I got yo drinking age I adopted what I described - pub, match, pub, I will not change now, but I will applaud from afar anything that can get more bodies along to live RL, just not for me.

Tbf though Harry that is your matchday experience. If Leigh moved to a ground where the nearest pub was an hours walk away or the only one nearby was rubbish for whatever reason that would impact your enjoyment of your matchday. One of the main criticisms West Ham fans have of the Olympic stadium is exactly that. Its nothing modern at all, though thinking about it commercially is.

Its all "matchday experience". Stuff clubs talk about now is either intergrating the existing spontaneous stuff like fan favourite pubs or bringing more entertainment in house. For anyone in charge of matchdays at any sports club, the aim is shifting massively towards making sure whoever comes through the turnstiles leaves having had had a good time that they would like to do again. If you rely purely on the sport to do that, then unless you are winning every week its a high risk strategy!

[Dave T]

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes whatever LR, call me an old fart or whatever but I have been going doing my thing since 1960 as a kid with my dad, then as the years passed when I got yo drinking age I adopted what I described - pub, match, pub, I will not change now, but I will applaud from afar anything that can get more bodies along to live RL, just not for me.

I think it is important to diversify, that means that we need to serve more markets. There are many like you who are happy to grab a beer and just watch the match - you are well served, we always put the match on, and you have pubs to go to - if not you have concourses. 

I've always enjoyed a beer around the rugby, but now I am hoping to take my 5 year old along my expectation is different. I'd still like a beer, but if that could be done in a nice fun family environment that entertains her to, perfecy, otherwise ill just go late in the day, or worse, not at all. But creating a fun zone for families and kids shouldn't infringe on what you are doing. 

Similarly, we should be serving existing markets and the RL anoraks with stats, detail, intelligent presentation and the stories behind the match, season, players etc. but also just have a fluffy fun game that caters for those who ignore this element and just enjoy the noise, colour, music, mascots etc. 

We should cater for those who can afford to spend only £20 and go to the cheap seats, or those who fancy getting dressed up and having cocktails and champagne and spending £100+.

If we want to be a game for all, we need to make sure we cater for all. At the moment I think we are often too one-dimensional and a bit old fashioned. 

But your experience is as valid as any other, and that's why it shouldn't be trashed, it should be embraced as any of the other customer segments I mention - because your segment are probably those who are turning up without clubs having to market to or incentivise. 

[Wakefield Ram]

Shall we call the leagues what they are? Super League and the Championship? Or maybe to reflect their breadth M62 1 and M62 2. If York and Newcastle are in for a season the M62/A1  league. And the remaining clubs? How about the "We don't give a toss about you league"?

Short term self-interest. If the only response to the quality of the fixtures is to show fewer teams we have completely missed the point.

[lucky 7]

18 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Shall we call the leagues what they are? Super League and the Championship? Or maybe to reflect their breadth M62 1 and M62 2. If York and Newcastle are in for a season the M62/A1  league. And the remaining clubs? How about the "We don't give a toss about you league"?

Short term self-interest. If the only response to the quality of the fixtures is to show fewer teams we have completely missed the point.

It is the actions or lack of actions by the RFL and the Super League clubs which has led to falling crowds. A reduced TV contract and fewer juniors playing the game.

[Wakefield Ram]

What we are effectively saying we can't find enough good players to have 12 teams even with lots of imports.

Watch matches from the 80s and 90s and see how much quicker the play the ball is. Its the same in the NRL. One of the reasons we can't beat Australia is they play at a higher tempo than us. Quicker play the balls encourage attacking play, slower play the balls help defending sides. Which do you think people would rather watch?

Cut out the lying on, stop this nonsense near the line where if your back foot is on the line you're not offside, stop defending players running blocks to stop challenging high kicks, stop the abuse of match officials by players, penalise players throwing the ball away when penalised. It's like we are okay with time wasting, negative tactics and disrespecting refs and linesmen. 

If we move away from negative tactics and 5 drives and a boot down the field as the main strategy the game might actually be a better product to watch. The "arm wrestle" might be fascinating to the purists, but it's dull as ditch water to the neutral or potential new fan. 

As for the Super League 2/Championship teams, just remember this as you jettison the teams outside the 20. All the SL teams need to do in a year or two then is propose that SL1 is expanded to 11 and they will have the majority votes to jettison you as well. You will reap what you sow.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9 by Wakefield Ram

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

What we are effectively saying we can't *afford* enough good players to have 12 teams even with lots of imports.

Watch matches from the 80s and 90s and see how much quicker the play the ball is. Its the same in the NRL. One of the reasons we can't beat Australia is they play at a higher tempo than us. Quicker play the balls encourage attacking play, slower play the balls help defending sides. Which do you think people would rather watch?

Cut out the lying on, stop this nonsense near the line where if your back foot is on the line you're not offside, stop defending players running blocks to stop challenging high kicks, stop the abuse of match officials by players, penalise players throwing the ball away when penalised. It's like we are okay with time wasting, negative tactics and disrespecting refs and linesmen. 

If we move away from negative tactics and 5 drives and a boot down the field as the main strategy the game might actually be a better product to watch. The "arm wrestle" might be fascinating to the purists, but it's dull as ditch water to the neutral or potential new fan. 

As for the Super League 2/Championship teams, just remember this as you jettison the teams outside the 20. All the SL teams need to do in a year or two then is propose that SL1 is expanded to 11 and they will have the majority votes to jettison you as well. You will reap what you sow.

Corrected that for you!

[OriginalMrC]

26 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

As for the Super League 2/Championship teams, just remember this as you jettison the teams outside the 20. All the SL teams need to do in a year or two then is propose that SL1 is expanded to 11 and they will have the majority votes to jettison you as well. You will reap what you sow.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely true. Unbelievely there are clubs in champ and league 1 who are in favour of central distribution being slashed.  That may curry some favours at the moment and give advantages to clubs who can put money in from wealthy benefactors. But all we will end up being left with is 4/5 clubs at the top who are sustainable and a few others that have a wealthy owner putting a few quid in every year. Anyone else will be collateral damage. 

[Wakefield Ram]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Corrected that for you!

You mean we need to find more money for imported players?

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Corrected that for you!

So says the boy from the big shiney house at the top of the hill Tommy.

If we do go to 14 teams do you honestly believe there are enough quality player's to go round?

If an announcement is made that 14 teams will be in SL next year just watch the clamour in the transfer market or clubs extending contracts for bang average players, there are simply not enough good ones to go around, I would say that good player's in comparrison to even 10 -15 years ago is down by 50%.

 

[Wakefield Ram]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So says the boy from the big shiney house at the top of the hill Tommy.

If we do go to 14 teams do you honestly believe there are enough quality player's to go round?

If an announcement is made that 14 teams will be in SL next year just watch the clamour in the transfer market or clubs extending contracts for bang average players, there are simply not enough good ones to go around, I would say that good player's in comparrison to even 10 -15 years ago is down by 50%.

 

Clubs are going to throw lots of money at bang average players. With the exception of a few Northern cities, the GB/England squad could walk down the main street of any city in their full kit and be lucky to meet anyone who knew who they were.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

You mean we need to find more money for imported players?

We did for literally 100 years recruiting squads from Welsh RU (and others).

The costs of importing quality has gone up massively in the past 25 years and we have simply not kept up. Nor has the investment in Youth RL (or lack of it depending on your view) been enough to plug that gap.

Top clubs like the salary cap being low as their inbuilt advantages mean they keep winning with low costs whilst others can't invest. Bottom clubs like a low cap as it keeps them in touching distance. We don't have enough middling clubs, or at least enough that are well organised as a voting bloc, who are capable of spending more to challenge the status quo, to push for serious reform or threaten the status of the big clubs.

[Leonard]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So says the boy from the big shiney house at the top of the hill Tommy.

If we do go to 14 teams do you honestly believe there are enough quality player's to go round?

If an announcement is made that 14 teams will be in SL next year just watch the clamour in the transfer market or clubs extending contracts for bang average players, there are simply not enough good ones to go around, I would say that good player's in comparrison to even 10 -15 years ago is down by 50%.

 

Not sure I agree.

I looked at the England 2011 Four Nations Squad the other day and looked pretty average to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Rugby_League_Four_Nations#England

I am quite excited about some of the youth from the 2018 academy ashes side getting a chance. For example, Wigan are playing Havard, Smithies and Smith and also blooding Hanley and Pearce-Paul. 

Much more interested in that - which is a consequence of need due to money - than bringing in a Burgess or some end of career NRL players, which has been the norm prior.

 

Edited August 9 by Leonard

[Leonard]

Club Team	Players
Bradford Bulls	Sam Burgess and Paul Sykes
Castleford Tigers	Michael Shenton
Huddersfield Giants	Eorl Crabtree and Scott Moore
Hull F.C.	Tom Briscoe1
Hull Kingston Rovers	Shaun Briscoe and Peter Fox
Leeds Rhinos	Jamie Peacock (c), Ryan Hall, Danny McGuire, Kevin Sinfield and Lee Smith
Salford City Reds	Richard Myler
St. Helens	Kyle Eastmond, James Graham, James Roby and Jon Wilkin
Warrington Wolves	Chris Bridge, Garreth Carvell, Adrian Morley and Ben Westwood
Wests Tigers	Gareth Ellis2
Wigan Warriors	Sam Tomkins

The 2009 squad is even more uninspiring.

[Wakefield Ram]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Tbf though Harry that is your matchday experience. If Leigh moved to a ground where the nearest pub was an hours walk away or the only one nearby was rubbish for whatever reason that would impact your enjoyment of your matchday. One of the main criticisms West Ham fans have of the Olympic stadium is exactly that. Its nothing modern at all, though thinking about it commercially is.

Its all "matchday experience". Stuff clubs talk about now is either intergrating the existing spontaneous stuff like fan favourite pubs or bringing more entertainment in house. For anyone in charge of matchdays at any sports club, the aim is shifting massively towards making sure whoever comes through the turnstiles leaves having had had a good time that they would like to do again. If you rely purely on the sport to do that, then unless you are winning every week its a high risk strategy!

If you look at Toronto's match day experience, it looked like a beer festival with a game of rugby. And it was successful. Most professional sports are part drinking events - Test cricket,  darts (not a real sport I know but look at the crowds), horse racing (went to Ascot and by the end more hammered people staggering around than a city centre on a Saturday night)

[Leonard]

Just now, Wakefield Ram said:

If you look at Toronto's match day experience, it looked like a beer festival with a game of rugby. And it was successful. Most professional sports are part drinking events - Test cricket,  darts (not a real sport I know but look at the crowds), horse racing (went to Ascot and by the end more hammered people staggering around than a city centre on a Saturday night)

Correct. 

I went to the Derby this year and had no interest in any races other than the fact it was a day out with some mates I have not seen for a while.

 

[Man of Kent]

9 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I am quite excited about some of the youth from the 2018 academy ashes side getting a chance. For example, Wigan are playing Havard, Smithies and Smith and also blooding Hanley and Pearce-Paul. 

 

It's an interesting, transitional time for England. As well as the players you mention, other young guns like Partington, Holroyd, Newman, Welsby, Wardle, Dom Young, Farnworth, even Lewis Dodd could be knocking on the door loudly for the 2022 squad.  

[phiggins]

10 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

If you look at Toronto's match day experience, it looked like a beer festival with a game of rugby. And it was successful. Most professional sports are part drinking events - Test cricket,  darts (not a real sport I know but look at the crowds), horse racing (went to Ascot and by the end more hammered people staggering around than a city centre on a Saturday night)

And Twickenham is regularly full of people that have no clue what is going on.

[Wakefield Ram]

1 minute ago, phiggins said:

And Twickenham is regularly full of people that have no clue what is going on.

Absolutely true. I've been a few times and the actual game is the worst part of the day. Having drinks with friends and the atmosphere is great, the match almost invariably a disappointment.

[Leonard]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

It's an interesting, transitional time for England. As well as the players you mention, other young guns like Partington, Holroyd, Newman, Welsby, Wardle, Dom Young, Farnworth, even Lewis Dodd could be knocking on the door loudly for the 2022 squad.  

Even Lewis at Hull KR ad Pryce at Huddersfield - although not for 2022 of course.

I am genuinely excited about some of the talent coming through and makes it far more interesting a watch for me than seeing Ahn Van and the like.

[steve oates]

41 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If we do go to 14 teams do you honestly believe there are enough quality player's to go round?

If an announcement is made that 14 teams will be in SL next year just watch the clamour in the transfer market or clubs extending contracts for bang average players, there are simply not enough good ones to go around, I would say that good player's in comparrison to even 10 -15 years ago is down by 50%.

 

Some clubs have said "no" to a 14 club league and "no" to no relegation this year so after such a great effort to start winning yesterday, Leigh may not escape relegation via re-organisation.

The proposal was rejected by "some clubs" although SKY are happy with 14 next year ...............

The news also included the idea that with two tens SL2 would have top games televised which makes sense, as opposed to televising SL relegation "battles". These being a feature of the old set up....

[sweaty craiq]

13 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes whatever LR, call me an old fart or whatever but I have been going doing my thing since 1960 as a kid with my dad, then as the years passed when I got yo drinking age I adopted what I described - pub, match, pub, I will not change now, but I will applaud from afar anything that can get more bodies along to live RL, just not for me.

Great opportunity for KR with a boozer being miles away

[David Dockhouse Host]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So says the boy from the big shiney house at the top of the hill Tommy.

If we do go to 14 teams do you honestly believe there are enough quality player's to go round?

If an announcement is made that 14 teams will be in SL next year just watch the clamour in the transfer market or clubs extending contracts for bang average players, there are simply not enough good ones to go around, I would say that good player's in comparrison to even 10 -15 years ago is down by 50%.

 

Yes 100% definitely enough good players without a doubt.

This excuse is a red herring 

If reduced teams was a solution, then dropping from 14 to 12 would have seen an increase in players, it didn't and we are having the same conservation a few years later with the same flawed logic to justify it.

The only reason we need to reduce teams is money 

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Absolutely true. I've been a few times and the actual game is the worst part of the day. Having drinks with friends and the atmosphere is great, the match almost invariably a disappointment.

Yep, people attend because of the 'occasion' like darts, who watches that in their local pub?

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Absolutely true. I've been a few times and the actual game is the worst part of the day. Having drinks with friends and the atmosphere is great, the match almost invariably a disappointment.

Agree in general, but the flip side our enjoyment was spoiled the other day at Headingly having a bunch of drunks sitting behind... all thinking their comments funny but in essence abusive, balancing drinks that spilled as they moved and went back for more... My family often don't attend much saying such is a factor, especially for the little un's.  

It is/was good that Headingly had a family stand section...

Always seems to me for some and seems to me drinks is the only factor getting them their.

Never-the-less the above are a minority and the social drinking is a key part of my enjoyment normally. I just don't impose any drunken behaviour on others.

I guess it comes down to stewarding, like a barman of old who knows when somebody is going to be a pain in the backside.