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World Class Players


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4 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Not the case at all - Makemson is a great player and one of the best 4 out and out wingers in the world 

My abiding memory of Makinson (or "Makemson" as you call him) during the 2020 World Club Challenge. 80 mins of wandering about whinging to the referee. This particular one was shortly after Daniel Tupou strolled in down Makinson's edge, and shortly before he got absolutely emptied on a first tackle carry. Asked to step up against quality opposition, he offered nothing.

(In fairness to St Helens, their front rowers really stepped up that night, and showed that they at least, were NRL level. Makinson though.... Anonymous.)

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5 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

My abiding memory of Makinson (or "Makemson" as you call him) during the 2020 World Club Challenge. 80 mins of wandering about whinging to the referee. This particular one was shortly after Daniel Tupou strolled in down Makinson's edge, and shortly before he got absolutely emptied on a first tackle carry. Asked to step up against quality opposition, he offered nothing.

(In fairness to St Helens, their front rowers really stepped up that night, and showed that they at least, were NRL level. Makinson though.... Anonymous.)

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So one game makes or breaks player does it??

If you are going to dig out historical performances to get your point across then I'll pick the 2006 GB win against Australia in Sydney.

Sean Long bossed the game and Darren Lockyer couldn't live with him that night - so by your logic Long was a better player than Lockyer.... surprised you think that, as Long committed what you think is, in your book ( by your many anit SL posts on here) the cardinal sin and played his whole career in SL..

Once again kid, your hatred of SL ( and England) clouds your questionable judgement.

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17 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

So one game makes or breaks player does it??

If you are going to dig out historical performances to get your point across then I'll pick the 2006 GB win against Australia in Sydney.

Sean Long bossed the game and Darren Lockyer couldn't live with him that night - so by your logic Long was a better player than Lockyer.... surprised you think that, as Long committed what you think is, in your book ( by your many anit SL posts on here) the cardinal sin and played his whole career in SL..

Once again kid, your hatred of SL ( and England) clouds your questionable judgement.

And by his logic,going on their last Test performance against Tonga,Australia haven’t got a single World Class player either.

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11 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

And by his logic,going on their last Test performance against Tonga,Australia haven’t got a single World Class player either.

They have but are playing for Tonga ūüėÄ

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3 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

So one game makes or breaks player does it??

If you are going to dig out historical performances to get your point across then I'll pick the 2006 GB win against Australia in Sydney.

Sean Long bossed the game and Darren Lockyer couldn't live with him that night - so by your logic Long was a better player than Lockyer.... 

2006?? Wow.... That's going back a long time! ūüėĄ

15 years ago, SuperLeague was a lot stronger than it is now. The Dream Team that year had Jamie Lyon, Kieron Cunningham, Stu Fielden, Sean Long, and Danny McGuire.

Nowadays it has people like Aidan Sezer, Paul McShane and Kelepi Tanginoa.

The drop off in level, is massive, and that is reflected in the numbers of people watching it, and the amount that broadcasters are nowadays willing to pay for it.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Long was not better than Lockyer. The fact you had to go back 15 years to find an example says it all really. 

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We don't have as many as we used to for sure  Clark, Roby, Tomkins and Walmsley are clearly four world class players in my opinion.  Probably Bateman too but he's struggling this year a bit.  That isn't enough in a whole competition.

I'd say we then have a number who have the potential to be world class if they develop in Johnstone, Knowles, Oledzki, (who I really, really like the look of) and maybe even Jake Conor (who can the talent to be tremendous on his day but has flaws and inconsistencies that I think wil stop him becoming world class - great to watch though).  Then there are some younger lads showing big promise like Newman, Welsby, Dodd, Morgue etc.

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14 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Agree with most of what you are saying, but while Johnstone has a lot of talent with the ball in hand, there are others parts of his game where he is far short of anything that could be described as "world class". If he was to improve on these parts of his game, then perhaps he could one day be considered as a world class player, but at the moment he is well short of that. (Not just my opinion either.... If he was anywhere near World Class, NRL sides would be all over him). 

I would say injuries have had more effect on his lack of popularity.

This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me.
 
 
Wakefield Trinity RLFC
2012 - 2014 "The wasted years"

2013, 2014 & 2015 Official Magic Weekend "Whipping Boys"

2017 - The year the dream disappeared under Grix's left foot.

2018 - The FinniChezz Bromance 

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16 minutes ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

I would say injuries have had more effect on his lack of popularity.

Well, lack of physical robustness is one of the problems with his game I think, so I am not disagreeing with you. It looks to me like his physical preparation has to improve, as he currently appears to be made of glass. 

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20 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Well, lack of physical robustness is one of the problems with his game I think, so I am not disagreeing with you. It looks to me like his physical preparation has to improve, as he currently appears to be made of glass. 

Sometimes players go through that - hopefully he's one that comes out the other end (a la Lomax) rather than staying that way (a la Wheeler).

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4 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Well, lack of physical robustness is one of the problems with his game I think, so I am not disagreeing with you. It looks to me like his physical preparation has to improve, as he currently appears to be made of glass. 

The shots he takes to his head and unfortunate knee injuries really don't relate to his physical preparation.  He is built like the proverbial BSH.  

This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me.
 
 
Wakefield Trinity RLFC
2012 - 2014 "The wasted years"

2013, 2014 & 2015 Official Magic Weekend "Whipping Boys"

2017 - The year the dream disappeared under Grix's left foot.

2018 - The FinniChezz Bromance 

2019 - The Return of the Prodigal Son

 

 

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9 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

2006?? Wow.... That's going back a long time! ūüėĄ

15 years ago, SuperLeague was a lot stronger than it is now. The Dream Team that year had Jamie Lyon, Kieron Cunningham, Stu Fielden, Sean Long, and Danny McGuire.

Nowadays it has people like Aidan Sezer, Paul McShane and Kelepi Tanginoa.

The drop off in level, is massive, and that is reflected in the numbers of people watching it, and the amount that broadcasters are nowadays willing to pay for it.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Long was not better than Lockyer. The fact you had to go back 15 years to find an example says it all really. 

Very touchy tonight son - is it because no one named Scotlands best ever player in their list in Danny Brough??ūü§£ūü§£ - great player but not SL standard now.

I used that game in 2006 as an example for a few reasons -  I was at the game, Lockyer was regarded as the best player in the world at the time and the Aussies I was watching the game with couldn't believe how Long bossed the game and how good he was (and its still my favorite game of RL). I remember they did say after the game, Long should play NRL, but at that time Saint Helens were basically the best team in the world so why would he have moved?

I never said Long was a¬†better player than Lockyer but I was using your questionable logic to prove your reason for saying Makemson isn't world class isn't credible - based on a single game against players in his position. So you have basically argued with yourself and agreed with me in an argument with yourself...ūü§Ēūü§Ēūü§£ūü§£

Your hatred of SL and the English is starting to really affect your ability to hold a debate.

As I said the NRL has far better players than SL - no one disputes that, but the hand full of SL players I and others have named on this thread are great great players - just because they play SL doesn't make them bad players - even if that massive chip on your shoulder says different. 

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On 23/08/2021 at 10:17, The Frying Scotsman said:

2006?? Wow.... That's going back a long time! ūüėĄ

15 years ago, SuperLeague was a lot stronger than it is now. The Dream Team that year had Jamie Lyon, Kieron Cunningham, Stu Fielden, Sean Long, and Danny McGuire.

Nowadays it has people like Aidan Sezer, Paul McShane and Kelepi Tanginoa.

The drop off in level, is massive, and that is reflected in the numbers of people watching it, and the amount that broadcasters are nowadays willing to pay for it.

And for the avoidance of doubt, Long was not better than Lockyer. The fact you had to go back 15 years to find an example says it all really. 

100% concur with this.

Only the other day I was looking at the Wikipedia article on the best XIII from every SL season (think I was watching the Jason Robinson interview on Sky Arena which prompted it) and there is a drop off in names (and quality). 

World class for me is anyone that wouldn’t look out of place in a best XIII in RL (it’s a standard that’s been used in football, good enough for a world XI). Sean Long would have qualified imo. 

18 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Very touchy tonight son - is it because no one named Scotlands best ever player in their list in Danny Brough??ūü§£ūü§£ - great player but not SL standard now.

I used that game in 2006 as an example for a few reasons -  I was at the game, Lockyer was regarded as the best player in the world at the time and the Aussies I was watching the game with couldn't believe how Long bossed the game and how good he was (and its still my favorite game of RL). I remember they did say after the game, Long should play NRL, but at that time Saint Helens were basically the best team in the world so why would he have moved?

I never said Long was a¬†better player than Lockyer but I was using your questionable logic to prove your reason for saying Makemson isn't world class isn't credible - based on a single game against players in his position. So you have basically argued with yourself and agreed with me in an argument with yourself...ūü§Ēūü§Ēūü§£ūü§£

Your hatred of SL and the English is starting to really affect your ability to hold a debate.

As I said the NRL has far better players than SL - no one disputes that, but the hand full of SL players I and others have named on this thread are great great players - just because they play SL doesn't make them bad players - even if that massive chip on your shoulder says different. 

You missed ‚Äúhatred of¬†the NHS‚ÄĚ.

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On 23/08/2021 at 01:03, The Frying Scotsman said:

My abiding memory of Makinson (or "Makemson" as you call him) during the 2020 World Club Challenge. 80 mins of wandering about whinging to the referee. This particular one was shortly after Daniel Tupou strolled in down Makinson's edge, and shortly before he got absolutely emptied on a first tackle carry. Asked to step up against quality opposition, he offered nothing.

(In fairness to St Helens, their front rowers really stepped up that night, and showed that they at least, were NRL level. Makinson though.... Anonymous.)

 

If we're going off one performance then I guess you'll agree that Billy Slater was an absolute donkey, I mean he practically handed the Kiwi's the WC with his howler didn't he !!!

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For me a World Class player should meet several criteria;

One who turns in a 9/10 performance week in week out for their clubs (regardless of whether its SL or the NRL).

A gamebreaker than can turn a game in their teams favour with a piece of brilliance, particularly in big games like finals, or when their team is really struggling,

Someone who is one of if not the best player in their particular position across both SL and the NRL and would most likely walk into most teams in both competitions.

 

When you then look down the list of current SL players there aren't many that fit that criteria. People mention Tomkins but there's probably 4-5 better FB's than him in the NRL.

Makinson - possibly based on the above criteria. In the NRL for me Addo-Carr is probably streets ahead of every other winger but then there's a group of other very good wingers like Alex Johnstone, and for me Makinson probably fits into this group.

Centres & half-backs - can't think of a single one in SL who would fit into that category.

Walmsley for me is the only one who i'd have on the list. I'd say is probably right up there with any of the top props in the NRL at the moment, is consistently a 9/10 every week, and has either won or dragged Saints back into games pretty much on his own over recent years.

Hooker - a few years ago i'd have easily said Roby. Him & Cam Smith were streets ahead of everybody else playing 9 in world RL. But he's right at the back end of his career now and even though he's still a top class player he's lost a bit of that edge that set him aside from the rest. Clarke - possibly could be considered but I don't see him putting in that 9/10 performance every week.

In the Back-row, again i'm struggling. People have mentioned Knowles and yes he's a very good player I just don't see him yet as a game breaker. 9/10 every week definately, as good as any other 13 in the NRL, absolutely, just not a game breaker when you compare him to someone like Taumololo).

Edited by Saint Toppy

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15 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

For me a World Class player should meet several criteria;

One who turns in a 9/10 performance week in week out for their clubs (regardless of whether its SL or the NRL).

A gamebreaker than can turn a game in their teams favour with a piece of brilliance, particularly in big games like finals, or when their team is really struggling,

Someone who is one of if not the best player in their particular position across both SL and the NRL and would most likely walk into most teams in both competitions.

 

When you then look down the list of current SL players there aren't many that fit that criteria. People mention Tomkins but there's probably 4-5 better FB's than him in the NRL.

Makinson - possibly based on the above criteria. In the NRL for me Addo-Carr is probably streets ahead of every other winger but then there's a group of other very good wingers like Alex Johnstone, and for me Makinson probably fits into this group.

Centres & half-backs - can't think of a single one in SL who would fit into that category.

Walmsley for me is the only one who i'd have on the list. I'd say is probably right up there with any of the top props in the NRL at the moment, is consistently a 9/10 every week, and has either won or dragged Saints back into games pretty much on his own over recent years.

Hooker - a few years ago i'd have easily said Roby. Him & Cam Smith were streets ahead of everybody else playing 9 in world RL. But he's right at the back end of his career now and even though he's still a top class player he's lost a bit of that edge that set him aside from the rest. Clarke - possibly could be considered but I don't see him putting in that 9/10 performance every week.

In the Back-row, again i'm struggling. People have mentioned Knowles and yes he's a very good player I just don't see him yet as a game breaker. 9/10 every week definately, as good as any other 13 in the NRL, absolutely, just not a game breaker when you compare him to someone like Taumololo).

Amazing how 12 months ago Bateman would have been classed in the top forwards.... back to the old - step onto an NRL pitch and be World Class but if you play in SL you can't be.

Mind you he's been poor since he came back from the NRL, must be so easy for him in SL he doesn't need to try..

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1 hour ago, Mr Frisky said:

Amazing how 12 months ago Bateman would have been classed in the top forwards.... back to the old - step onto an NRL pitch and be World Class but if you play in SL you can't be.

Mind you he's been poor since he came back from the NRL, must be so easy for him in SL he doesn't need to try..

With Bateman I think it is far more about where he is playing rather than how he is playing.  And I mean position, not club.

He is a world class edge forward (second row in old money) but far less effective at 13.

If he were on the edge for Wigan I think it would be a better option but considering they have Isa and Farrell and they gave Bateman the 13 shirt before the season started it looks like the plan was always loose forward.

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19 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If he were on the edge for Wigan I think it would be a better option but considering they have Isa and Farrell and they gave Bateman the 13 shirt before the season started it looks like the plan was always loose forward.

They bought one of the best edge forwards in the game , the best back rower around voted by his peers in his only full NRL season … then they move him somewhere else . He’s the best option there surely you shift someone else ? His attributes have been shown to be in a bit of space on an edge , not in the heavy traffic down the middle 

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9 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

If we're going off one performance then I guess you'll agree that Billy Slater was an absolute donkey

No. 

Nor would I ever draw a comparison between Billy Slater, and Tommy Makinson. They shouldn't even be mentioned on the same thread. One is world class. The other doesn't even interest average NRL teams. 

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6 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

No. 

Nor would I ever draw a comparison between Billy Slater, and Tommy Makinson. They shouldn't even be mentioned on the same thread. One is world class. The other doesn't even interest average NRL teams. 

You really don't like Makinson do you lad? - apart from being English and playing in SL (which in your book seem to be the 2 worst things a RL player can do) what's he ever done to you?? - did you think you were in the running for the golden boot the year¬†he won it??ūü§Ē

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On 22/08/2021 at 21:05, Scubby said:

In my view, to be world class you would probaby have to be the in the top 3/4 in your position in the world. 

 

 

On that criteria I would only consider Roby from S.L.

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14 hours ago, DavidM said:

They bought one of the best edge forwards in the game , the best back rower around voted by his peers in his only full NRL season … then they move him somewhere else . He’s the best option there surely you shift someone else ? His attributes have been shown to be in a bit of space on an edge , not in the heavy traffic down the middle 

Well we are talking about Lam & Radlinski,they initially bought Bevan French to play stand-off.

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16 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Amazing how 12 months ago Bateman would have been classed in the top forwards.... back to the old - step onto an NRL pitch and be World Class but if you play in SL you can't be.

Mind you he's been poor since he came back from the NRL, must be so easy for him in SL he doesn't need to try..

A couple of years ago Bateman would definately have been up there but the injury and loss of form since returning to SL have seen his performances drop off massively. He looks a shadow of the player he was a few years ago at Canberra.

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Saints Men's team - Triple Champions & Double Winners ; Saints Women's team - Treble Winners ; Thatto Heath - National Conference Champions

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Instead of replacing my LB season ticket this year I subscribed to Watch NRL, so get to see most games and most players. Being brutally honest, I cant think of one SL player who would get in top 5 in any position. 

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