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England 17 for Samoa


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1 hour ago, northamptoncougar said:

Personally I think the time has been and gone for Currie.

If Knowles went to the NRL now I've no doubt he'd have at least the success of Bateman.

I'd worry about Lomax, he's never done it in Internationals, Dodd / Price might be more suited in 12 months time.

Bit in bold… for me, it’s one or the other with Lomax/Williams; not both. If they have good seasons, I wouldn’t be afraid to throw either Dodd or Pryce into the mix for the WC; both class young players. It didn’t do Tomkins/Eastmond any harm in 2011.

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I would have Lomax in the squad but not the team as I don't think he and Williams have real class or are vocal enough to boss England around the park. But of the 2 Williams is the one who could be a game changer.

Williams can be hot or cold so we need to see his club form next season.

If everyone was fit and in form I would go Williams and Gale - Gale has the arrogance to go with his undoubted class and he would boss the team as he's very vocal on the pitch, all of which you need at international level.

For all those young wide players mentioned on here just because they play in the NRL-  I think we have far better in SL - but ill get shot down as we all know as soon as you tread onto an NRL pitch you are world class....apparently - could they do it on a windy night at Wakey....

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3 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Bit in bold… for me, it’s one or the other with Lomax/Williams; not both. If they have good seasons, I wouldn’t be afraid to throw either Dodd or Pryce into the mix for the WC; both class young players. It didn’t do Tomkins/Eastmond any harm in 

I think they were 2009.

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16 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

If everyone was fit and in form I would go Williams and Gale - Gale has the arrogance to go with his undoubted class and he would boss the team as he's very vocal on the pitch, all of which you need at international level.

 

When was Gale last on good form, probably 2017 at Cas. He had a couple of decent games for Leeds in 2020 but it didn't last long. You seriously want to pick as 1st choice scrum half for England someone who hasn't played consistently well at club level for 4 years (on top of his constant injuries) ???

Gale's time has been & gone and Wane needs to be focusing this year on bringing the likes of Pryce, Dodd & Lewis into the England Squad to see which of them fits into the team along side the experienced players like Lomax, Williams & Widdop

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37 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

When was Gale last on good form, probably 2017 at Cas. He had a couple of decent games for Leeds in 2020 but it didn't last long. You seriously want to pick as 1st choice scrum half for England someone who hasn't played consistently well at club level for 4 years (on top of his constant injuries) ???

Gale's time has been & gone and Wane needs to be focusing this year on bringing the likes of Pryce, Dodd & Lewis into the England Squad to see which of them fits into the team along side the experienced players like Lomax, Williams & Widdop

As I said - if everyone is fit and in form.....

He has the confidence and a streak of arrogance that you need at that level. Going with a hot and cold and quiet Williams and a young untested half back could mean England get bullied by the bigger nations.

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On 07/11/2021 at 23:42, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I'd like to think Jake Connor will be in the squad too as he is very versatile, but it's clear he's out of favour.

If jake connor gets remotely near an international jersey we can kiss goodbye to aspiration 

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I think the names below are reasonably solid bets (barring injury) based on Wane's selections and comments in the past (not necessarily saying I agree). I think the question marks are still up for grabs and the players in brackets in order of most likely to fill those gaps.

Tomkins
???????? (Davies, Johnstone, McGillvary)
Percival
??????? (Gildart, Newman, Welsby, Hardaker, Farnworth, Lyne, Connor)
Makinson
Lomax
Williams
Walmsley
Hodgson
T Burgess
Whitehead
Bateman
Knowles

?????? 
??????
Farrell
Clark

Possible remaining bench spots between Thompson, Cooper, Oledzki, Sutton, Philbin, Watts, Currie. Half back remains the greatest concern for me as we do have an element of depth in every other position.
 

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14 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I think the names below are reasonably solid bets (barring injury) based on Wane's selections and comments in the past (not necessarily saying I agree). I think the question marks are still up for grabs and the players in brackets in order of most likely to fill those gaps.

Tomkins
???????? (Davies, Johnstone, McGillvary)
Percival
??????? (Gildart, Newman, Welsby, Hardaker, Farnworth, Lyne, Connor)
Makinson
Lomax
Williams
Walmsley
Hodgson
T Burgess
Whitehead
Bateman
Knowles

?????? 
??????
Farrell
Clark

Possible remaining bench spots between Thompson, Cooper, Oledzki, Sutton, Philbin, Watts, Currie. Half back remains the greatest concern for me as we do have an element of depth in every other position.
 

Hodgson shouldn't be anywhere near the England squad, never mind the team.

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1 hour ago, Chris22 said:

I think the names below are reasonably solid bets (barring injury) based on Wane's selections and comments in the past (not necessarily saying I agree). I think the question marks are still up for grabs and the players in brackets in order of most likely to fill those gaps.

Tomkins
???????? (Davies, Johnstone, McGillvary)
Percival
??????? (Gildart, Newman, Welsby, Hardaker, Farnworth, Lyne, Connor)
Makinson
Lomax
Williams
Walmsley
Hodgson
T Burgess
Whitehead
Bateman
Knowles

?????? 
??????
Farrell
Clark

Possible remaining bench spots between Thompson, Cooper, Oledzki, Sutton, Philbin, Watts, Currie. Half back remains the greatest concern for me as we do have an element of depth in every other position.
 

Hodgson is seriously out of form. Even in the games he did play last year he was pretty average. He needs a massive year in the NRL to warrant selection for England.

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1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Yes, who wouldn't want one of the Man of Steel nominees in the line up, eh?

Thats more to do with the scoring system they use for the MOS. Players like Connor look good and often pick up MOS points in SL games where Hull are fairly comfortable. But when it comes to the big games or ones where the team is struggling and they need someone to really step up he often goes missing.

At international level you need your key players to step up when the team is under pressure -and that just ain't Connor.

On top of that there's the question of where you would play him. There's better players than him in each of his main positions of FB, Centre or SO so he wouldn't be a starting player If you go for a utility back on the bench then they usually look for someone who can come on and change a game if the team is struggling. And as i've already said that just isn't Connor, he tends to go missing when the team is up against it.

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Connor has been pretty good in rep games and mostly as an out-of-position centre. He'd be my first choice at either of 6 or 7 mainly because he has by far the best range of passes in his repertoire - left or right, short or long - of any available Englishman. He's scored and laid on plenty of tries in his few England appearances. I don't see any rival close to him with ball in hand.

Of course, he has issues with his speed that ought to rule him out as a 1, and he turns his shoulder too early in defence, but he's our best bet at opening up high quality international defences.

 

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Jake Connor who played opposite Joseph Manu in the winning 2018 test series? Had a very good series also.

Not suggesting he should necessarily be in the starting 13 but don't understand the claim that he has no pedigree at this level?

Lack of pace would rule him out of the full back role imo but at centre or half he will create chances against anybody.

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17 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Now he’s back in big league, I would pencil in Bretherton as a bolter. 

Not sure, he never stood out much to me in the play-off & Final games this season (though admittedly I never saw any of his earlier season performances).

That said I think he's going to find it very had to stand out in SL next year. TO appear to have probably the weakest pack in SL and I can see them getting 'steamrollered' quite a few weeks. Bretherton is going to have to be absolutely exceptional to stand out in a team thats likely to take a fair few hidings.

I think there may be 1 or 2 surprise inclusions come the end of the year who people haven't really talked about much, but I don't think Bretherton will be one of them. 

For me one player that really went under the radar for half of 2021 was Joe Batchelor. He started the season very much as a 'squad player', but he sure took his chance when it came with injuries & suspensions to Thompson & Mata'utia. By mid-season even when both were fit again he'd become an automatic starter, keeping Thompson out of the team all together. Be interesting to see whether he retains his place next year in the 2nd row against Matat'utia & Sironen.

I'd probably pick Batchelor as having more of an outside chance of selection for England than Bretherton.

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I see there is still the love-in with Bateman, on form last season he should have been nowhere near the France game let alone captain, an inform Bateman is really an assest the version last season is not, let's see how he goes next year and hopefully no one gets in on reputation alone, form should be the main criteria for selection, I think that should be a lesson well learned by now for GB/England coaches over the years, get the lads on the field who are performing week in week out not those who may have the potential to do well, to often they have dissapointed.

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5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I see there is still the love-in with Bateman, on form last season he should have been nowhere near the France game let alone captain, an inform Bateman is really an assest the version last season is not, let's see how he goes next year and hopefully no one gets in on reputation alone, form should be the main criteria for selection, I think that should be a lesson well learned by now for GB/England coaches over the years, get the lads on the field who are performing week in week out not those who may have the potential to do well, to often they have dissapointed.

I am sure most people pick him because they know his name is a trigger for you, Harry. 

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On 07/11/2021 at 20:56, Man of Kent said:

The usual off-season stuff. Here goes.

FB Tomkins
W Johnstone
C Young
C Farnworth
W Makinson
SO Lomax
SH Williams
P Walmsley 
H Clark
P Thompson
SR Whitehead
SR Bateman
LF Knowles

Interchange

Burgess
Oledzki
Sutton
Welsby

Decent side that could probably beat anyone bar Australia. Lack true world class in the backs compared to the likes of Trbojevic, Tedesco, Cleary et al.

Bateman had a very poor season 

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The difficult part in these conversations is trying to disaggregate the form of the player from the form of the team.  Yes, Bateman didn't have his best season and yes, he is one of Wigan's most senior players and has to take some responsibility for that.  But as an attacking edge player he would benefit from the structure and the attacking shapes that the team produces.

Wigan were poor all year in attack, lacking any structure from their halves when they tried to shift the ball.  The halves didn't commit or square up the defence and the lateral shift made it really easy for defences to manage the edge players.  I don't particularly blame the halves as the fault lies more with the coaching performance but Bateman had nothing to work with and so relied on plenty of effort and energy which I think he showed most of the time.

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15 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I am sure most people pick him because they know his name is a trigger for you, Harry. 

Be perfectly honest EW, if the performances and form exhibited last season was by someone who did not have his previously earned reputation and was relatively not a player who was not instantly recognisable he would not have earned selection, would he.

Example, one name that has been mentioned on this subject of International selection is Joe Batchelor who in my opinion  exhibited far better form than Mr Bateman last season and should have been rewarded above him by representing his country, but we don't want to do that, we select player's in the hope that they will suddenly revert back to what they have done previously, international selection should be earned as a reward of recent ongoing performance not saying he was once good.

I hope that Mr Bateman does revert back to the player that we all admired, but if next season his form is no different to this past one, then he should be overlooked.

Edited by Harry Stottle
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On 08/11/2021 at 12:36, northamptoncougar said:

I'd worry about Lomax, he's never done it in Internationals, Dodd / Price might be more suited in 12 months time.

It’s laughable when people suggest playing a pair of 19 year old half backs for England who have played about 10 Super League games each. Sure let’s send them out against Samoa, Tonga, New Zealand and Australia. 

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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