IMG Grading Unveiled

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The sort of knee-jerk decisions to abandon something because it didn't work in a short timeframe are the result of the chronic lack of money in the game.  Quite simply, waiting things out for a longer timeframe was a luxury the game couldn't afford due to the financial pressures it's always been under.

I think you're mistaken that IMG can deliver the expansion and growth which has eluded the game before.  Their critics are essentially correct when they say that IMG's proposals are just a variation on things tried before, and therein lies the problem.

IMG seems to think that clubs based in smallish, economically deprived towns can solve the severe problems which they face if only someone would drive them do so.  That approach ignores the facts that (1) the sort of money needed to solve those problems is nowhere to be found in those towns and (2) due to the unfashionable nature of their locations those clubs simply don't have the appeal to expand their audience reach more broadly.  I note when forum critics of IMG asked what material difference exists between the "big clubs" in SL and the smaller clubs in the Championship they didn't get an answer to that question.

With the new season underway we have data about this in the form of Channel 4's audience numbers so far this season compared to the same period last season, and as you can see below the numbers are not what we might wish for: they're significantly down from last year.  As I've suggested before, the unpalatable truth as that the so-called "Super League" doesn't have the reach required to attract the new audience the game needs if its decline is to be turned around and I suggest that the audience data for the Channel 4 telecasts supports this view.

 

I can't disagree with a lot you say BP, but your solution of having club's sited in big cities in my opinion will never come to pass, you highlight a FTA service that is becoming less attractive to the public, that being the case will they ever want to pay for it if it landed on their doorsteps?

All the big cities in this country are influenced and have Association Football clubs, they will never take to this upstart of a game that is entrenched in 2 counties along a motorway in the North of the country.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those figures are quite drastic and the thing is THEY ARE FREE !

If that trend repeats itself with subscription channels, the game will be in bother.

I imagine viewing figures will drop under the new proposals. I class myself as a casual viewer when it comes to SL, I watch a lot of games in the early rounds as there is a bit of uncertainty and from that point I will watch games at the top and games involving the teams that play the best rugby and then I will watch the games involving teams in a relegation battle but everything inbetween I don't usually bother with which tends to be quite a number of games later on in the season. Take away any sort of relegation battle and the number of games I will watch will drop by about 1/3 and could be up to 1/2 depending on the overall standard of the competition. I won't be the only one in this situation.

My big question would be how is IMG going to market the game so that the viewing audience gets larger? Obviously the main selling point is the product on the field and Joe public really does not care if you have a 60 inch widescreen in the corner of the gound. For me the I am struggling to see how the changes go about improving the overall quality when we can already work out that the current SL clubs will stay as SL clubs and there will likely be a gap between the best Championship teams that can't be eclipsed on the field like Leigh have done and because of that the product in SL really doesn't change. Obviously I could be wrong regarding how they do the gradings and we could see a big shake up which I would really like but I can't see it. To me it makes it look like a lot could change without it actually changing. As I have said before though I am not totally against this more likely just worried about certain aspects.

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those figures are quite drastic and the thing is THEY ARE FREE !

If that trend repeats itself with subscription channels, the game will be in bother.

To be fair I watch a lot of sport on TV in general.. I know when the RL is on sky, its regular..  I keep forgetting its on on channel 4, I would tend to have to hunt out the information. If it was regularly every week at the same time I think we'd find people like me would be tuning in, as I did last year when there was loads of publicity about it. 

 

Also how much has it clashed with the 6 nations? Like it or not there is going to be a cross over of viewers and 6 nations will no doubt take priority as its international and only on for a short time every year. 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, RP London said:

To be fair I watch a lot of sport on TV in general.. I know when the RL is on sky, its regular..  I keep forgetting its on on channel 4, I would tend to have to hunt out the information. If it was regularly every week at the same time I think we'd find people like me would be tuning in, as I did last year when there was loads of publicity about it. 

 

Also how much has it clashed with the 6 nations? Like it or not there is going to be a cross over of viewers and 6 nations will no doubt take priority as its international and only on for a short time every year. 

As a broader point, I really do not understand why we so regularly put our TV games up against non televised fixtures.

Even having them with an earlier/later kick off time would mean that they matches could be on in pubs and stadium bars for attendees of given fixtures to watch.

[Pulga]

8 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No they aren't.

The money is from Sky, not C4, and Sky's SL telecasts reach a much smaller audience.  Low ratings are the reason why SL lost the Saturday night timeslot it had originally, and why Sky has reduced their offer at the times when they've done so.

C4 couldn't afford even the reduced money Sky pays now because C4 depends on ad revenue and RL isn't TV-friendly enough for them to recoup even as much as that from ad revenue alone, they'd need a lot more ad minutes to sell but without making their audience miss any of the action for that.  The plain truth as that the regional M62 league with most times one and occasionally two add-ons further afield doesn't rate well enough to be offered more than it's getting now and unless Sky decides that it's proven its value might get either a renewal for even less later this year or no offer at all.

What's the average sky match viewership at the moment?

[Dave T]

I don't think structure has too huge an issue on viewing figures, bar maybe whether it is first past the post or a playoff comp. 

What makes the biggest difference is having more compelling, exciting, interesting games between clubs people want to see.

And that isn't dependent on whether they are named Salford or Manchester. Salford are now becoming a strong team playing a great style in a way that people will want to watch. That is what we need to work towards.

I'll watch most games on TV, but there are absolutely games that I'm interested in watching, and some that I may flick on and off or have a passing interest in. Salford games are far more attractive than they used to be. Same with Hull KR as another example. Leigh have stoked up interest this year. 

Same point for attending games. Due to other commitments I don't go to every game, but a game v Salford or Leigh is of far more interest than in past years and we need all clubs to keep growing and making themselves more attractive to fans, viewers, sponsors all round. 

The principle of getting more bigger clubs in SL is absolutely sound. 

[Veridical]

18 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Building an end-of-season event focused on failure and jeopardy is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

This is a strained interpretation of what the M8s were. They were an attempt to make qualification for the next year’s Super League into a discrete, high-stakes competition. The idea that emphasising qualification for a given competition “devalues” (per Chrispm) that competition or is “nuts” or “ridiculous” is a position that could only be arrived at if looking at the structure through a prism heavily distorted by ideology.

[Quote]The climax of the year should be wholly focused on excellence, and creating a narrative around the stories of achievement and success.[/quote]

Qualifying to participate in the top tier of your sport is an achievement and for most clubs constitutes success (for some it’s the highest level of on-field success they can reasonably hope to achieve).

Qualification tournaments drive interest in a great many sports and battles to avoid relegation and achieve promotion do so in many European sports leagues (not only football). The idea that such battles are harmful to the reputation or value specifically of RL is odd and can only come from some kind of weird lack of confidence in or “cultural cringe” about the sport.

I have some sympathy for the way you’d like to restructure the game, HKB, but you are cornering yourself into some pretty stupid positions to defend it atm.

 

[The Future is League]

Well said JP

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-rugby-league-29427459

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

30 minutes ago, Veridical said:

This is a strained interpretation of what the M8s were. They were an attempt to make qualification for the next year’s Super League into a discrete, high-stakes competition. The idea that emphasising qualification for a given competition “devalues” (per Chrispm) that competition or is “nuts” or “ridiculous” is a position that could only be arrived at if looking at the structure through a prism heavily distorted by ideology.

[Quote]The climax of the year should be wholly focused on excellence, and creating a narrative around the stories of achievement and success.[/quote]

Qualifying to participate in the top tier of your sport is an achievement and for most clubs constitutes success (for some it’s the highest level of on-field success they can reasonably hope to achieve).

Qualification tournaments drive interest in a great many sports and battles to avoid relegation and achieve promotion do so in many European sports leagues (not only football). The idea that such battles are harmful to the reputation or value specifically of RL is odd and can only come from some kind of weird lack of confidence in or “cultural cringe” about the sport.

I have some sympathy for the way you’d like to restructure the game, HKB, but you are cornering yourself into some pretty stupid positions to defend it atm.

 

You're entitled to that view mate, but there's no contorting going on from me I swear.

Creating a tournament to enable promotion has merits, it's how football does it. That's focused on a positive, I can get on board with that. But including a bunch of teams from the league above whose only aim is to not fail entirely destroys any of those merits. It makes the teams striving to achieve promotion bit-part players in another type of story. It also shows that teams who people have been watching be rubbish all year, are in most cases better than the best teams from the lower league, when another type of promotion play-off could present the latter as being excellent... so it undermines any positivity about them if anything. It's daft on about 57 different levels. 

I reckon that's pretty self-evident, but even if you disagree you can at least see that point of view surely? Doesn't require any contorting, I'm far told old for owt like that - not with the state of my back!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Hull Kingston Bronco
Typo

[redjonn]

17 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Well said JP

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-rugby-league-29427459

mostly ok but what I didn't like is the whinging comment, can others not have a different opinion and comment on concerns without being called out as whinging.

Otherwise no problems with the top level comments he gives, as distinct from any analysis.

[Chrispmartha]

42 minutes ago, Veridical said:

This is a strained interpretation of what the M8s were. They were an attempt to make qualification for the next year’s Super League into a discrete, high-stakes competition. The idea that emphasising qualification for a given competition “devalues” (per Chrispm) that competition or is “nuts” or “ridiculous” is a position that could only be arrived at if looking at the structure through a prism heavily distorted by ideology.

[Quote]The climax of the year should be wholly focused on excellence, and creating a narrative around the stories of achievement and success.[/quote]

Qualifying to participate in the top tier of your sport is an achievement and for most clubs constitutes success (for some it’s the highest level of on-field success they can reasonably hope to achieve).

Qualification tournaments drive interest in a great many sports and battles to avoid relegation and achieve promotion do so in many European sports leagues (not only football). The idea that such battles are harmful to the reputation or value specifically of RL is odd and can only come from some kind of weird lack of confidence in or “cultural cringe” about the sport.

I have some sympathy for the way you’d like to restructure the game, HKB, but you are cornering yourself into some pretty stupid positions to defend it atm.

 

I don’t think you’ve understood my points correctly if you think my issue with the Middle 8s is the qualification into SL.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

Well said JP

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-rugby-league-29427459

"Obviously, some clubs aren’t happy. But it looks to me like it’s the right way to move forward. If you get a plan where everyone is happy then it’s not the right plan. One of the worst things you can do in life is try and please everyone so it’s good that a few are whinging. Rather than try and please everyone like we have in the past, we’ve got to create a plan that improves the game and I feel this is one is as good as any I’ve seen."

If you get a plan where everyone is happy then it's not the right plan.........

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I can't disagree with a lot you say BP, but your solution of having club's sited in big cities in my opinion will never come to pass, you highlight a FTA service that is becoming less attractive to the public, that being the case will they ever want to pay for it if it landed on their doorsteps?

All the big cities in this country are influenced and have Association Football clubs, they will never take to this upstart of a game that is entrenched in 2 counties along a motorway in the North of the country.

If I can find a way into the offices of the sort of rich men who might otherwise buy into one of the established major pro leagues, my solution can then come to pass.  That can happen then because I can show them how they can make money on their investment just as happens in North American major and minor pro leagues alike, because I can show them how the prospective broadcast partners can all make money by showing the matches on TV.

The latter is the key to having broadcasters willing to pay for rights and happy to renew (and pay more for the privilege) when the time rolls around.  And through the unique broadcast rights strategy which I've conceived, if all the broadcast partners I envisage should come on board at the price points I have in mind they could all make good money on the deal and the League would be on a solid financial foundation from day 1.

I agree that the big cities in Britain won't take to a small, regional game, but that's not what my League would be offering them.  What they would get is something so unique and outside the box that there would be no mistaking it for a small, regional game.

[Tommygilf]

Interesting thread in reply to Keighley Cougars

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Interesting thread in reply to Keighley Cougars

 

 

Indeed. I think we'll eventually get the truth of how dismally the northern matches underperformed vs attendance expectations. You'd reasonably expect PR guff during and directly after the tournament, par for the course, but honesty always breaks through into the sunlight in the end...!!

 

[Angelic Cynic]

On 11/03/2023 at 18:27, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The Middle 8’s were a car crash. None of that word salad disproves it. 

Ooops.Sorry.I forgot your side lost to Salford.

Okay then.Your owner could not find a buyer for the club.

It seems land has been purchased and it's all systems go.New all-singing,all-dancing board members have been attracted;apparently by IMG getting involved.

With IMG now involved - Do you expect club ownerships to exchange,or be in demand? Either Super League clubs or clubs outside of Super League. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

54 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Ooops.Sorry.I forgot your side lost to Salford.

Okay then.Your owner could not find a buyer for the club.

It seems land has been purchased and it's all systems go.New all-singing,all-dancing board members have been attracted;apparently by IMG getting involved.

With IMG now involved - Do you expect club ownerships to exchange,or be in demand? Either Super League clubs or clubs outside of Super League. 

Can you repeat the question at the end, but in English? I will happily then do my very best to address it. Thanks.

[Guest]

Unprofessional by Keighley and not a good look for the sport. This wouldn't happen in football or union. Their fans keep bringing up the money spent on London and Newcastle. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't it been mostly private inildividuals spending their money in these places.

I'd love to know what the plan is if IMG walk. Just continue until the Sky deal is gone and the sport is no longer fully professional.

[yipyee]

6 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

Unprofessional by Keighley and not a good look for the sport. This wouldn't happen in football or union. Their fans keep bringing up the money spent on London and Newcastle. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't it been mostly private inildividuals spending their money in these places.

I'd love to know what the plan is if IMG walk. Just continue until the Sky deal is gone and the sport is no longer fully professional.

It also makes me laugh too, the only money the rfl invests in was Bradford and another hearland club when they bought the grounds to stop them disappearing.

[yipyee]

Not read the whole thread but just on P&R this is still in place and isn't effected by IMG plans so unsure why there's a big kick off ?

[RP London]

2 hours ago, yipyee said:

Not read the whole thread but just on P&R this is still in place and isn't effected by IMG plans so unsure why there's a big kick off ?

ah.... i'll summarise the salient point here then.. 

While P&R does exist technically, it would appear on first reading of the document, so it needs to be confirmed/wording tightened if we are wrong, that p&r will be done year on year by just moving the ones with the highest B grade up where as we all though (or at least most of us) that P&R between the B grades would be base on the field of play only once the initial repositioning of the league had happened.

so its not a closed shop but the P&R is different and not what was expected.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

but honesty always breaks through into the sunlight in the end...!!

Thanks for that good words, I am going to copy and paste it into my archive files for future reference.

Don't for one minute think that I am aiming that at you Bronco, I just see it as a phrase that I can use in the future.

[dkw]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Interesting thread in reply to Keighley Cougars

 

This was a beauty of a reply...

 

[Tommygilf]

55 minutes ago, dkw said:

This was a beauty of a reply...

 

Also Keighley's maths just doesn't make sense. They won't get zero.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Also Keighley's maths just doesn't make sense. They won't get zero.

It's only 2 points as well. They can make it up in other areas.