Report: 2025 World Cup on verge of collapse

[pahars]

3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I'll give you the same challenge as @Damien: find me even one national team in any other sport comprised primarily of heritage players, if you can.  Something tells you won't be able to, because no such team exists.

14 out of 26 of Morocco’s FIFA Semi-final squad were born overseas. What do I win? 

[JonM]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I'll give you the same challenge as @Damien: find me even one national team in any other sport comprised primarily of heritage players, if you can.  Something tells you won't be able to, because no such team exists.

Morocoo, semi-finalists at the world's biggest sports event - the World Cup? 20 out of 28 qualifying for the team by ancestry. Ireland in 1990 had 6 Irish-born players in the squad of 22.

Scottish Union team had 20+ non-Scots in the squad. English cricket team has taken the field with more than half the team born abroad on many occasions over decades.  How many of the GB Ice Hockey team were born in Canada, do you think?

[HawkMan]

9 minutes ago, JonM said:

Morocoo, semi-finalists at the world's biggest sports event - the World Cup? 20 out of 28 qualifying for the team by ancestry. Ireland in 1990 had 6 Irish-born players in the squad of 22.

Scottish Union team had 20+ non-Scots in the squad. English cricket team has taken the field with more than half the team born abroad on many occasions over decades.  How many of the GB Ice Hockey team were born in Canada, do you think?

The difference is that RL has heritage teams in a WC representing countries that don't play RL, and in many cases have never even heard of it. How many Italians even know there's two codes? To say that team any way represented Italy or their folk is delusional.

Example; In Chile there's a field hockey like sport called Palin. If a team of Chileans with an English grandparent played Palin and called themselves England,  would anyone in this country care, or felt the England Palin team any way represented them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palin_(game)

Edited May 20 by HawkMan

[JonM]

1 minute ago, HawkMan said:

The difference is that RL has heritage teams in a WC representing countries that don't play RL,

Name one.

[gingerjon]

50 minutes ago, JonM said:

Morocoo, semi-finalists at the world's biggest sports event - the World Cup? 20 out of 28 qualifying for the team by ancestry. Ireland in 1990 had 6 Irish-born players in the squad of 22.

Scottish Union team had 20+ non-Scots in the squad. English cricket team has taken the field with more than half the team born abroad on many occasions over decades.  How many of the GB Ice Hockey team were born in Canada, do you think?

Great Britain baseball - with positive coverage from the BBC in the World Baseball Classic.

Most players from the USA. Second most was from the UK but tied with the Bahamas. And most of the UK group no longer live here.

[HawkMan]

45 minutes ago, JonM said:

Name one.

It depends how you define " RL country" I wouldn't call Italy, Scotland, or Lebanon RL countries although of course  people play it there,  but heritage players are needed to put out an international team capable of playing without getting dangerously hurt.

Morocco in football or Japan in RU, examples previously cited, don't need heritage players, they use them to get better players,  that's okay in all sports, using agreed rules of qualification. But it is agreed on here by plenty of posters that without heritage players Italy Lebanon Scotland wouldn't have a team.

 

Edited May 20 by HawkMan

[JonM]

18 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

It depends how you define " RL country"

You didn't say "RL country" though - you said countries that don't play RL. To even enter the RLWC qualifiers you need to meet criteria around number of domestic clubs etc.

There's a (fair) argument that Scotland and Italy don't really meet the criteria any more and shouldn't be allowed to take part until they do again. But even there, there are people playing RL, clubs taking part in national and international competitions, there are national teams at various youth levels and so on.

I would point out that all of Lebanon, Italy and Scotland have competed in international games without using professional players. They most certainly can and do field a team without heritage players. It just would not be anywhere near as good. 

[JonM]

For example, Italy hosted the under-19's European Championship in 2022. Do you seriously think a bunch of Aussies flew over to take part in those games against Ukraine, Ireland, Wales etc?

[Pulga]

Not the heritage debate. Good grief. This is part of the stupidity of our sport. There's loads of examples of heritage players and naturalised players in all kinds of sports. We just seem to get hung up on it because we don't seem to attract the brightest fans. 

[Sports Prophet]

It’s very easy to see why the heritage rule does attract criticism. 

Sure, the eligibility rules in RL are similar to most sports I can think of.

I can’t think of any sport where eligibility by heritage is so prevalent for its top tier World Cup. Less than half the WC nations are predominantly made up of players born and raised in the country they are representing. 

[Mojo]

4 hours ago, Pulga said:

Not the heritage debate. Good grief. This is part of the stupidity of our sport. There's loads of examples of heritage players and naturalised players in all kinds of sports. We just seem to get hung up on it because we don't seem to attract the brightest fans. 

People only complain towards heritage players when they start winning and making a difference. If it was a team that was losing 80+ pts to teams consistently than we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't see what the problem is tbh old heads needs to move on and accept it

[footy_fan_nrl]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Come on BP , you are a union troll , we know that , did the Tongan and Samoan teams look ' Tongan and Samoan ' ? 

Do all the Japanese RU team look  ' Japanese ' ? 

People just use this label when they don’t like to hear the reality of the situation. Actual childish

[Jim from Oz]

https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/fiji-riding-rugby-league-popularity-in-making-world-cup-host-bid-67b98188

[Jparrish]

3 hours ago, Jim from Oz said:

https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/fiji-riding-rugby-league-popularity-in-making-world-cup-host-bid-67b98188

A Fiji and NZ/Aus Co host situation would be great to see would like to think we'd see a 16 team tournament in that case too 

Personally I believe NZ and Fiji alone would work also.

There's still talk of this Tri nations going ahead here in Australia with Samoa and NZ and I was already thinking if that is the case why not invite FIJI in to make it a 4 nations they were quarter finalists who ran NZ very close and if they are seriously considering bidding participating in something like the 4 nations would help with exposure 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Jparrish said:

A Fiji and NZ/Aus Co host situation would be great to see would like to think we'd see a 16 team tournament in that case too 

Personally I believe NZ and Fiji alone would work also.

There's still talk of this Tri nations going ahead here in Australia with Samoa and NZ and I was already thinking if that is the case why not invite FIJI in to make it a 4 nations they were quarter finalists who ran NZ very close and if they are seriously considering bidding participating in something like the 4 nations would help with exposure 

Any country can hold a World Cup, or parts of one, as long as Government funding is there and guaranteed. That's the key. If Fiji get this then they could certainly hold some games. If not then its not going to happen.

[gingerjon]

Briefly off topic to recap a distraction from before:

Not sure if the commentator at the British Handball Cup currently going on in Scotland is a reader of this forum but I thought it was a nice touch to describe an attacking tackle that stops play but doesn't take possession as being "like rugby league."

[JM2010]

2 hours ago, Jparrish said:

A Fiji and NZ/Aus Co host situation would be great to see would like to think we'd see a 16 team tournament in that case too 

Personally I believe NZ and Fiji alone would work also.

There's still talk of this Tri nations going ahead here in Australia with Samoa and NZ and I was already thinking if that is the case why not invite FIJI in to make it a 4 nations they were quarter finalists who ran NZ very close and if they are seriously considering bidding participating in something like the 4 nations would help with exposure 

If the SH tournaments are being played next year as well who are England going to play?

It is going to be an Australia, NZ, Tonga Tri Nations with Samoa dropping out to play a series against England?

[Big Picture]

On 20/05/2023 at 10:41, pahars said:

14 out of 26 of Morocco’s FIFA Semi-final squad were born overseas. What do I win? 

Sorry to disappoint you but only 13 of those 14 are really heritage players, because one of them moved back to Morocco with his parents at the age of 3 and grew up there.  Thus their team at the FIFA World Cup was half players who grew up in Morocco and half heritage players.

In some ways that's similar to the Welsh team at the 1995 RL World Cup which also a more or less even blend of players who grew up in Wales and others who qualified by heritage.  It's different in one important respect though: whereas Morocco could easily field a national soccer team comprised entirely of players who grew up there or immigrated there and became naturalized citizens, if Wales was ever able to field a national RL team without any heritage players that was back in the mists of time now.

Feel free to try again though.

[corkonian77]

10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Sorry to disappoint you but only 13 of those 14 are really heritage players, because one of them moved back to Morocco with his parents at the age of 3 and grew up there.  Thus their team at the FIFA World Cup was half players who grew up in Morocco and half heritage players.

In some ways that's similar to the Welsh team at the 1995 RL World Cup which also a more or less even blend of players who grew up in Wales and others who qualified by heritage.  It's different in one important respect though: whereas Morocco could easily field a national soccer team comprised entirely of players who grew up there or immigrated there and became naturalized citizens, if Wales was ever able to field a national RL team without any heritage players that was back in the mists of time now.

Feel free to try again though.

Morocco has a greater history in Football than France has in Rugby League. 

Wikipedia for all its worth says Morocco  has had  National teams playing since 1928. 

 

 

[Big Picture]

On 20/05/2023 at 10:43, JonM said:

Morocoo, semi-finalists at the world's biggest sports event - the World Cup? 20 out of 28 qualifying for the team by ancestry. Ireland in 1990 had 6 Irish-born players in the squad of 22.

Scottish Union team had 20+ non-Scots in the squad. English cricket team has taken the field with more than half the team born abroad on many occasions over decades.  How many of the GB Ice Hockey team were born in Canada, do you think?

As I pointed out in answer to @pahars, only 13 of Morocco's FIFA World Cup team qualified by heritage, all the others grew up in Morrocco.  The 1990 Ireland team does appear to have more than half heritage players, however under Irish law all of them were eligible to obtain Irish citizenship and any who did that would be completely legitimate members if an Irish national team because what matters isn't where someone was born, it's where he has citizenship.

I'm quite happy to accept a few players on a national team who aren't citizens as long as they're all eligible to obtain citizenship in that country.  Re the Scottish RU team and the English cricket team one needs to remember two things: there is no separate English or Scottish citizenship, there's only British citizenship.  Second, under UK law the children of British emigrants (and in some cases the grandchildren too) are eligible to get British citizenship on the basis of ancestry.  Thus most of any heritage-qualified players (and maybe all of them) are eligible to get British citizenship and then they could most likely choose which of the home countries they wanted to represent, quite legitimately.

And we'd probably find that most such players were living and playing their sport in the country which they were representing as well so that's not remotely the same thing as the national teams in RL made up of players who've either never lived in the country they're representing or left it as small children.

Re the British ice hockey team I can guarantee you that all their players are UK citizens, because the IIHF won't allow any non-citizens to play on national teams in any of their competitions, not a single one.  And being British citizens they are 100% legitimate.

19 hours ago, Pulga said:

Not the heritage debate. Good grief. This is part of the stupidity of our sport. There's loads of examples of heritage players and naturalised players in all kinds of sports. We just seem to get hung up on it because we don't seem to attract the brightest fans. 

To be completely clear, I have absolutely no objection to naturalized players.  As citizens of the country they represent, they are 100% legitimate.

[Tommygilf]

 

 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

As I pointed out in answer to @pahars, only 13 of Morocco's FIFA World Cup team qualified by heritage, all the others grew up in Morrocco.  The 1990 Ireland team does appear to have more than half heritage players, however under Irish law all of them were eligible to obtain Irish citizenship and any who did that would be completely legitimate members if an Irish national team because what matters isn't where someone was born, it's where he has citizenship.

I'm quite happy to accept a few players on a national team who aren't citizens as long as they're all eligible to obtain citizenship in that country.  Re the Scottish RU team and the English cricket team one needs to remember two things: there is no separate English or Scottish citizenship, there's only British citizenship.  Second, under UK law the children of British emigrants (and in some cases the grandchildren too) are eligible to get British citizenship on the basis of ancestry.  Thus most of any heritage-qualified players (and maybe all of them) are eligible to get British citizenship and then they could most likely choose which of the home countries they wanted to represent, quite legitimately.

And we'd probably find that most such players were living and playing their sport in the country which they were representing as well so that's not remotely the same thing as the national teams in RL made up of players who've either never lived in the country they're representing or left it as small children.

Re the British ice hockey team I can guarantee you that all their players are UK citizens, because the IIHF won't allow any non-citizens to play on national teams in any of their competitions, not a single one.  And being British citizens they are 100% legitimate.

To be completely clear, I have absolutely no objection to naturalized players.  As citizens of the country they represent, they are 100% legitimate.

Just as a point.. to play for the home nations you have to prove that your link is to that country.. you can't just chose by becoming a British citizen.. grandparent, at worst, must be born inside scotland/wales/England and careful of moving borders as that caught out some kiwi Welsh RU players mid 90s..

 

Surely if you qualify for a passport then you can play.. passports (for the most part afaik) are grandparent rules.. 

 

But it's irrelevant.. you play by the rules of the sport.

Edited May 21 by RP London

[Jim from Oz]

Er…. Back on topic please class!

There are LOTS of interesting tidbits in this piece from the IRL:

https://www.intrl.sport/news/explainer-the-venues-size-structure-qualifying-process-being-considered-for-rlwc2025/

[welshmagpie]

18 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

Er…. Back on topic please class!

There are LOTS of interesting tidbits in this piece from the IRL:

https://www.intrl.sport/news/explainer-the-venues-size-structure-qualifying-process-being-considered-for-rlwc2025/

reading between the lines…

2023

Tonga tour England

Oceania Cup with Aus, NZL, Samoa

Oceania Shield with Cook Islands, Fiji, PNG

2024

Samoa tour England

France tour Pacific and play whoever has ‘the bye’ from below and Lebanon.

Oceania Cup with Aus, NZL, Tonga

Oceania Shield with Cook Islands, Fiji, PNG

 

[Damien]

26 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

Er…. Back on topic please class!

There are LOTS of interesting tidbits in this piece from the IRL:

https://www.intrl.sport/news/explainer-the-venues-size-structure-qualifying-process-being-considered-for-rlwc2025/

Thanks for that.

I find that very, very underwhelming and there is quite a bit in there that is of concern. A lot of words with few real answers and much of it is just a rinse and repeat of what Grant, and his predecessors, have said for years.