Why don’t we talk more about statistics?

[Saint Toppy]

The clubs use the stats as key indicators, including using the live data during matches. I sit adjacent to the directors box at Saints and every team has a "Stats man" collating live data throughout a match and passing onto the coach.

Without proper context and analysis i'm not sure how useful raw stats are to most fans, but to the clubs themselves they're an invaluable tool.

[Angelic Cynic]

Some coaches don't like stats being given out in case they assist the opposition.

The sport of soccer has more pundits on TV & radio talking tactics,every man,woman and child,feel empowered about the sport.

I would like the stats so I can see if they tally with what my eyes tell me,and as a discussion point with fellow fans.

It would help newbies glean a bit more understanding of the sport as they attempt to understand the rules:before they change again.

The sport doesn't care about the fans.It won't happen.

Most secretive sport still surviving.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, MattSantos said:

Why do you think RL journalists don't use them?

For the same reasons broadcasters dont.

[Padge]

9 out of ten people hate statistics.

[Derwent]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

9 out of ten people hate statistics.

Only because 67.42% of statistics are completely made up.

[Padge]

Just now, Derwent said:

Only because 67.42% of statistics are completely made up.

Or 100% if you read the sun.

[Click]

2 hours ago, MattSantos said:

Why do you think RL journalists don't use them?

Probably because they find it impossible to find stats as well.

[Griff]

20 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Only because 67.42% of statistics are completely made up.

No - it's more than that.

[The Blues Ox]

As a fan where would I even find the stats for Championship teams? At times its hard enough just to find out top try scorers.

[Jughead]

20 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

The clubs use the stats as key indicators, including using the live data during matches. I sit adjacent to the directors box at Saints and every team has a "Stats man" collating live data throughout a match and passing onto the coach.

Without proper context and analysis i'm not sure how useful raw stats are to most fans, but to the clubs themselves they're an invaluable tool.

It’s a way for fans to debate and discuss players and teams, I find. You get some real simple stuff that is pretty baseless and nonsensical in Football like “Player A is a better midfielder than Player B of rival club because they have a higher pass percentage” but equally, there are people that use it far more analytically and apply it far better, if that’s your sort of thing. I appreciate it’s not for everyone but data has really boomed in sport in the last twenty years and more so given the very public talk of data used in the transfer market at places like Oakland A’s, Brentford and Brighton (though I’m sure pretty much everyone uses data in some form, these clubs are just very much known for it). Personally, I use some team data, at a very basic level, for betting purposes and it’s something I enjoy, if a little geeky. 

The data for Super League is poor, at best. It’s presented poorly but also, sometimes you can’t even find data on a player who has played in a particular game as for some reason, the Super League site doesn’t have the data. 

Obviously, for some, the only thing they care about is what the score is and what their eyes tell them. That’s fine, too but it would be nice to have the option with data because it definitely exists. 

[Jughead]

5 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

As a fan where would I even find the stats for Championship teams? At times its hard enough just to find out top try scorers.

This is also a pertinent point. Stats outside of Super League are even more difficult to find. Most likely because stats are kept in house and they’re not covered by Opta but you’ll almost never find info on stuff like metres made by a prop. 

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Jughead said:

....... you’ll almost never find info on stuff like metres made by a prop. 

I would suggest that it's not as often as that.

[RigbyLuger]

John Davidson has tweeted about this before, and I'm sure others have mentioned it. The stats aren't readily available for that kind of reporting, and you'd have to ask Super League/the RFL why that is.

[Griff]

If you're looking for detailed stats in RL&LE on a Monday morning for a Championship game, it's not going to happen.  You'd never meet the deadline.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

As a fan where would I even find the stats for Championship teams? At times its hard enough just to find out top try scorers.

What's the Championship ?

[M j M]

Mike Meehall Wood on The Roar is one of the few RL journalists to both frequently quote but also critique and explain stats. His work is primarily NRL focussed but SL gets coverage in and about.

 

[Dunbar]

5 hours ago, MattSantos said:

I don't think that's the initial point though.

Stats should be a vehicle for discussion. Does Boots n All still exist?

 

Good old Dunbatron is brilliant at using stats to shape an argument. I have just read that you've fell out, so... why was Luai so ###### in origin 1?

I really enjoy analysing the stats from players (more so than teams).

But the point is that you use the stats to back up your perception, not form them.

You can watch a game and see a player do really well and then see the stats back that up and his/her contribution to the game is even more obvious.

I think the clearest example was when we were discussing how Ryan Hall was doing for Roosters and he wasn't getting any try scoring chances or making breaks and yet someone pitched up on here and said his involvement and workrate was low and yet he was literally leading the carries per game for the team.

I have no problem with having a good disagreement with someone on performances, not least because Rugby League is a subtle and skilful game, but I think it is telling when people argue that facts are not correct.

[Dunbar]

5 hours ago, MattSantos said:

I don't think that's the initial point though.

Stats should be a vehicle for discussion. Does Boots n All still exist?

 

Good old Dunbatron is brilliant at using stats to shape an argument. I have just read that you've fell out, so... why was Luai so ###### in origin 1?

And I shall be insisting that everyone I know call me Dunbatron from this point forward. 

[my missus]

which stats can people not find?

there are stats all over the place,

https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/stats-rugbyleaguechampionship.html?utm_content=cmp-true

 

[Dunbar]

4 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Only ' stat ' that matters is who won 

That's like saying all that matters when you run a business is the bottom line when actually it is focusing on all the factors and levers that you can pull to effect the bottom line is what really matters.

All the best coaches will say focus on performance, not the scoreboard. 

[The Future is League]

I thought all clubs professional and semi professional clubs had their own stats men at their games

[Neil_Ormston]

I organise the work of the RL Record Keepers' Club (https://stats.rugbyleaguerecords.com/), so it's fair to say, I'm a fan of stats!  One of our members sent me this link, so I thought I'd chip in with my twopen'orth

To answer the question in the OP: the root cause, as with most things, is money (or more specifically, lack of it).  This results in detailed match stats not being widely available, or adequately analysed by media / broadcasters. 

To give a more complete overview of the landscape: there's a few companies out there who gather data for rugby - the best known is Opta, although ironically they don't actually run under that name anymore (they are now Stats Perform ("SP")); they are the market leader, and forerunner in this area. Rob Lowe, their founder, has since sold the company & I believe has set up a new organisation, and we may see more of them soon; equally IMG have their own data arm, so they may be a potential source in future.  But in the UK SP have had pretty much a monopoly position, and barriers to entry are fairly high.

SP provide data to the RFL/SL, but this is not a 'real time' deal which is more expensive, so info isn't available immediate.  Those with a keen eye will have seen that RLWC2021 had a different agreement with SP and this info was available live across all 3 competitions.  As a result, broadcasters don't have access to this info, so have to employ their own people if they want any of this sort of data - this is why you only get very limited in-game data for TV games (again, you need a team of a fair few people to record this properly live, and the money isn't there).  Likewise, SL clubs employ their own analysts, and usually have 1 or 2 guys doing this, as it's a much cheaper option to do in-house - obviously this isn't publicly available.

The SP data is good, and covers most, if not all, the info that people would want to see.  However, there are then problems with public availability: the RFL / SL websites are poor, info doesn't appear in a timely fashion, there are problems with completeness, links don't work, etc - this is an issue with the websites I believe, rather than the underlying data itself; however, it essentially makes the data inaccessible.

One other point to note: each club analyst, broadcaster & SP will use different methodologies to record their stats, so you can't compare between them!  This can also mean you get different stats for the same game if covered by more than 1 source (e.g. you might see a player with a different number of tackles on Sky than in his SP data - if you can track it down!).

FWIW, on behalf of the RKC I've offered to the RFL (or strictly speaking RL Commerical) that we could host the SP data for free on our website: we could easily present this alongside our existing data, and do some fairly basic rankings and analysis, and it would at least make it available for further interpretation.  This would at least allow journalists to do more in-depth analysis, but this is a specialised area, and they may not have the expertise to do a huge amount more; as a voluntary organisation (focused on sharing a history of the sport back to 1895) the RKC wouldn't have the resource to do much more than be a conduit for the information.  I live in hope that we might be able to play a role helping to share this data though; maybe if enough people contact RL Commercial requesting it, they might be more willing to discuss my offer further, as I am awaiting a response from them here.  Regardless, I would hope that with IMG's involvement, and desire to drive fan engagement (especially with younger audiences, who have higher expectations here) we will see more development in this area soon.

[Jughead]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

I would suggest that it's not as often as that.

I notice that London Broncos tweet out top tackler and that sort of thing but otherwise, I can’t say I know of anyone else doing similar. 

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, my missus said:

which stats can people not find?

there are stats all over the place,

https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/stats-rugbyleaguechampionship.html?utm_content=cmp-true

 

The players and team tabs show days from 2014-2019. 

[Dunbar]

36 minutes ago, Neil_Ormston said:

One other point to note: each club analyst, broadcaster & SP will use different methodologies to record their stats, so you can't compare between them!  This can also mean you get different stats for the same game if covered by more than 1 source (e.g. you might see a player with a different number of tackles on Sky than in his SP data - if you can track it down!

Thanks for your post. Really interesting. 

This point resonates with me as I use both the NRL.com and Fox Sports stats for NRL player stats and they are always out of sync (although the overall picture is consistent).

I tend to gravitate to the Fox stats as they are better presented.