Championship/C1 structure

[Blind side johnny]

Structure headache outside Super League rages on ahead of Championship season opener as clubs push for solution (loverugbyleague.com)

[The Blues Ox]

Personally think it would be madness to reduce the number of teams in the Championship when it looks like all teams can be competitive and with Oldham coming up next year as well. Could you imagine SL getting to a point where they had 14 grade A teams and then reducing back down to 12 because the Championship lost some teams.

[Spidey]

13 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Personally think it would be madness to reduce the number of teams in the Championship when it looks like all teams can be competitive and with Oldham coming up next year as well. Could you imagine SL getting to a point where they had 14 grade A teams and then reducing back down to 12 because the Championship lost some teams.

I get a lot of that but we shouldn’t be screwing over league one either they need a meaningful competition. 12 teams would be fine for the championship

Edited February 5 by Spidey

[Bring back GB]

Relegating 4 teams from the championship this year would be crazy. It needs to remain a 14 team league.

[PREPOSTEROUS]

How about some reserve teams play in League 1 to provide more games. Happens in football in Europe.

[Indigogo]

A 12 team championship and an 11 team L1 seems the most sensible option. How you get there fairly I'm not so sure. A decision needs to be in place before the season starts though so clubs can plan accordingly.

[Griff]

Twelves and eights rearing their ugly head again.  Despite being rejected as a failed system.

In 31 of the the past 41 seasons, the number and size of the divisions has not been the same as the previous year.

Rugby League loves change.  Just for the sake of change.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I get a lot of that but we shouldn’t be screwing over league one either they need a meaningful competition. 12 teams would be fine for the championship

Weakening 2 teams(potentially more depending how they were to get to 12 teams) just to help out a lower division would be a very Rugby League thing to do. There does need to be a solution for League 1 but reducing the number of teams in a highly competitive league should not be the way to do it.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Weakening 2 teams(potentially more depending how they were to get to 12 teams) just to help out a lower division would be a very Rugby League thing to do. There does need to be a solution for League 1 but reducing the number of teams in a highly competitive league should not be the way to do it.

Championship clubs looking after their own interests is such a SL thing to do, something a lot of Champ clubs moan about all of the time

[tim2]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Championship clubs looking after their own interests is such a SL thing to do, something a lot of Champ clubs moan about all of the time

It's a very English thing to abuse those above you, whilst secretly wanting to be like them, and to defecate on those below.

[Indigogo]

18 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Weakening 2 teams(potentially more depending how they were to get to 12 teams) just to help out a lower division would be a very Rugby League thing to do. There does need to be a solution for League 1 but reducing the number of teams in a highly competitive league should not be the way to do it.

What would you suggest? I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on this as I can't see a fair/easy way of the leagues becoming 12/11 split for next season. Some clubs are bound to feel aggrieved.

[The Blues Ox]

3 hours ago, Indigogo said:

What would you suggest? I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on this as I can't see a fair/easy way of the leagues becoming 12/11 split for next season. Some clubs are bound to feel aggrieved.

Personally I think we should look in to the possibility of reserve teams entering and failing that I would keep the numbers as they are until there are new teams strong enough to enter but that would need a solution regards the fixtures. I get that it could sound like a Championship fan trying to protect his own position but the reality is that its not going to affect my team very much if at all so say we have a decision where we relegate 3 teams come the end of the season and promote 1, how does that improve the quality of the product? Or even worse relegate 4 and promote 2.

The Championship is a very strong competition with no obvious weak team this season, at least not to the point where you could say a team is nailed on to be relegated so we have to assume that the bottom 3-5 teams its going to be close come the end of the season between them yet we would relegate more than two of those teams just for the simple reason of making numbers up in a league below. 

 

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

How about some reserve teams play in League 1 to provide more games. Happens in football in Europe.

It seems the most logical solution, perhaps as a reward for being A Grade makes your reserves eligible for the lower divisions.

The 1895 Cup with Group Stages is somewhat of a halfway house. Who knows how long it will last.

This situation exists because the Championship clubs did not want to go back to how they were before the big Sly Deal that flooded them with decent 6 figure central funding levels. They fought to keep as much as possible following the reduction. They looked after themselves first and foremost which is fair enough, but lets not pretend it is anything other than that.

The only other logical outcome for League 1 would be a form of regionalisation, allowing/inviting other teams into the pyramid at effectively a lower level than the national travel requirements now.

[gingerjon]

4 hours ago, Spidey said:

Championship clubs looking after their own interests is ...

... why our third tier is an absolute wasteland.

[gingerjon]

The Reserves idea is a terrible one. I fully expect it to be put forward and implemented as the solution.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

33 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

The Championship is a very strong competition with no obvious weak team this season, at least not to the point where you could say a team is nailed on to be relegated so we have to assume that the bottom 3-5 teams its going to be close come the end of the season between them yet we would relegate more than two of those teams just for the simple reason of making numbers up in a league below. 

 

Having watched my lot yesterday I beg to differ.

[del capo]

The Championship is the stepping stone to SL. It cannot be reduced at this stage. The RFL must concentrate its efforts on support / club improvement there. ( something the RFU have not done and which is causing mayhem with their own comp. Div 2 ).  as they in turn improve their IMG scorecards. SL clubs are in most cases more than able to look after themselves anyway.

  Minimum standards remain critical at all levels of the game in allowing progression through the system.  Meeting those standards and on field results have to open the door - nothing else.

League 1 is too small. It is unsustainable as it stands. It needs to be expanded to 12.

The only near term solution lies in  promoting clubs from the community game.

There are at least 60 such clubs that could compete at the lower end of Tier 3.  and have good enough off field facilities. An improved central grant to Tier 3  ( £30k instead of the current reported £15k? ) would likely turn the key. Promoted Tier 4 clubs  would /could become ' Open ' at their choice but League 1 clubs are in many ways virtually amateur in playing payment terms as it is and might want to go the  other way anyway. Remember - Operational Rules allow them to sign up to ten players on amateur forms already.

For the above to happen the RFL would need to accept promotion from the lower ranks  ( once anathema to it ), the NCL and  the hopefully re-surging SCL would have to accept a  proper ladder  up from Tier 5 and regionalize within  at least some of its  divisions to do so.,if only to  ease current travel issues and gain acceptance  to the idea from their  Tier 5 colleagues.

Minimum standards together with on field results - nothing else. A whole game solution at a an extra cost of less than say £200k pa. from central funds. SL and Championship untouched.

Whole Game problems  require whole game solutions.

[Tommygilf]

32 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The Reserves idea is a terrible one. I fully expect it to be put forward and implemented as the solution.

In the absence of no other ideas that can work, it may be the only thing that can happen.

The Championship won't reduce numbers. League 1 needs more teams and/or matches.

[Indigogo]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Personally I think we should look in to the possibility of reserve teams entering and failing that I would keep the numbers as they are until there are new teams strong enough to enter but that would need a solution regards the fixtures. I get that it could sound like a Championship fan trying to protect his own position but the reality is that its not going to affect my team very much if at all so say we have a decision where we relegate 3 teams come the end of the season and promote 1, how does that improve the quality of the product? Or even worse relegate 4 and promote 2.

The Championship is a very strong competition with no obvious weak team this season, at least not to the point where you could say a team is nailed on to be relegated so we have to assume that the bottom 3-5 teams its going to be close come the end of the season between them yet we would relegate more than two of those teams just for the simple reason of making numbers up in a league below. 

 

I can't see how having reserves team would help clubs in League one. You end up with fixtures that will be (even more) poorly attended and offer little to the competition. Who is going to go and watch their team at either an empty SL stadium (if they're lucky enough to play there) or a community club local to the area. I know I certainly wouldn't want to do that.

If there was a scenario that meant 11 teams in L1 and 12 in championship, I don't think it would impact the quality of the championship but would greatly improve the product of L1. If you look at Championship last season, the bottom 5 were some way off 9th position. It's easy to say there's no weak team on paper but Dewsbury came up almost unbeaten last season and last week they were comfortably beaten by Keighley who were relegated. In reality it's likely the top 9/10 in championship will be some way clear of the bottom 4/5. With no chance of automatic promotion to SL, having a competitive L1 and Champ with promotion and the jeapordy of relegation would add to the game imo.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The Reserves idea is a terrible one. I fully expect it to be put forward and implemented as the solution.

It is terrible, but with no other teams willing to join league 1 (why would they), it may be the most viable idea to have a competitive L1 with more than 10 teams. 

[zylya]

Obviously the neatest short term solution is a 12/11 split, but I think it’s time for the RFL to start looking at a national pyramid like they’ve introduced in the women’s game.

League 1 to sit above NCL/SCL with a promotion playoff between the two regions (with NCL renamed Northern Conference).

Of course, they would have to make promotion to League 1 be an attractive proposition, which I’m not sure it is at the moment.

That said, there have been some teams wanted to join League 1 in the past - a national pyramid would remove the “block” on new clubs (E.g. Manchester) but they’d have to prove their stripes before they could get there.

Obviously you’d have to change things around so there’s not a clear pro/amateur split which has a lot of historical context so wouldn’t necessarily be a simple process.

[OriginalMrC]

League 1 was reduced in size about 3 years ago. This is where the problem lies and should never have happened. That and the serious underfunding of league 1 clubs means the league is pretty much unsustainable. 

The championship is too big in the current league structure with a couple of clubs usually being whipping boys at the bottom of the table. However I'm not a fan of relegating extra clubs to even the numbers up. I think it more likely that the championship is expanded to 18/20 clubs and league 1 is scrapped altogether. 

Edited February 6 by OriginalMrC

[Griff]

10 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

League 1 was reduced in size about 3 years ago.

 

Time flies.

It was five years ago when two extra clubs were absorbed into the Championship.

The Championship is indeed too big.  It should be twelve clubs, playing 22 games and starting in March.  As IMG recommended.

[sentoffagain2]

17 minutes ago, Griff said:

Time flies.

It was five years ago when two extra clubs were absorbed into the Championship.

The Championship is indeed too big.  It should be twelve clubs, playing 22 games and starting in March.  As IMG recommended.

   That would mean a pay cut for Championship players who deserve all they get and more besides.Clubs needed the extra two home games to bring in more revenue that was the point of going to 14 teams.Going back to 12 and only 11 home league games will dilute the quality of players in the Championship.With no promotion to SL a League of 18 or 20 would be better tha\n 12 and 11.But which teams would be left out and the fixture make up would be a difficult choice.

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

   That would mean a pay cut for Championship players who deserve all they get and more besides.Clubs needed the extra two home games to bring in more revenue that was the point of going to 14 teams.Going back to 12 and only 11 home league games will dilute the quality of players in the Championship.With no promotion to SL a League of 18 or 20 would be better than 12 and 11.But which teams would be left out and the fixture make up would be a difficult choice.

Less hours, less pay?   I'm not sure that's unfair.