Catalans Travel

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

I'd respectfully suggest that the CEO in question is an idiot. Feel free to name and shame.

Catalans Dragons bring a fully-resourced club to SuperLeague, delivering elite performance as a result of having the budget to do so from their commercial engine. We don't have 12 of those in total. I can think of at least 4 current SuperLeague clubs who don't come anywhere near that definition, so that CEO should be looking at those organisations first.

Of course we all know that the CEO probably runs one of those very same weak clubs, so they won't... 

Pro Dragons clubs are very easy to find out they tend to be in the top half of the table bar London Broncos.

[Worzel]

7 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Pro Dragons clubs are very easy to find out they tend to be in the top half of the table bar London Broncos.

Indeed. It's just like life in business: Great people want to work with other great people, even if it means they have to up their own game to do so, and good clubs also want to play against other good clubs.

Only the weak or poor performers ever have any interest in lowest-common-denominator decisions, to distract from their own self-inflicted failings. That's been the British rugby league disease for decades. 

[Pigeon Lofter]

18 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Pro Dragons clubs are very easy to find out they tend to be in the top half of the table bar London Broncos.

I'd have a stab at Castleford, Salford, Huddersfield and maybe Wakefield until their relegation being anti-Dragon, but that's just guesswork. 

None of them are shining examples of how elite sport in the UK should be run.

 

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Worzel said:

Indeed. It's just like life in business: Great people want to work with other great people, even if it means they have to up their own game to do so, and good clubs also want to play against other good clubs.

Only the weak or poor performers ever have any interest in lowest-common-denominator decisions, to distract from their own self-inflicted failings. That's been the British rugby league disease for decades. 

This is where the sport constantly holds itself back. What is best for SL as a competition isn't always the same as what some clubs think is best for them individually.

[Hopie]

You can see why, at a time when clubs are living hand to mouth and when your finances could decide your league placing, that the cost of an international fixture (maybe 2 if the fixture computer plucks you out) and a club that doesn't really bring any away fans is a significant factor in your view of said club. It's more a sign of where the game sits as a whole, than a problem with individual clubs. There are lots of different ways to try and  mitigate this, and I guess a bit of politicking has worked here. 

I don't think it is fair for one overseas club to pay travel costs, and another to not, this was one way of balancing that out. I think Catalans are over a barrel tbh, they gain so much by being in SL, that paying a bit to stay in is massively preferential to leaving. Where is the alternative, the French structure away from them isn't producing the money or the players to produce an attractive product, and it took their TV games being produced for free to get them on French TV this year.

Edited March 1 by Hopie

[glossop saint]

2 minutes ago, Hopie said:

You can see why, at a time when clubs are living hand to mouth and when your finances could decide your league placing, that the cost of an international fixture (maybe 2 if the fixture computer plucks you out) and a club that doesn't really bring any away fans is a significant factor in your view of said club. It's more a sign of where the game sits as a whole, than a problem with individual clubs. There are lots of different things to mitigate this, and I guess a bit of politicking has worked here. 

I don't think it is fair for one overseas club to pay travel costs, and another to not, this was one way of balancing that out. I think Catalans are over a barrel tbh, they gain so much by being in SL, that paying a bit to stay in is massively preferential to leaving. Where is the alternative, the French structure away from them isn't producing the money or the players to produce an attractive product, and it took their TV games being produced for free to get them on French TV this year.

Some clubs making 2 trips is another reason, if any more are needed, to get rid of loop fixtures. 

[northamptoncougar]

Catalans are not In a UK structure, they are in the European Superleague.

Commercially they probably cover Castleford / Huddersfield/ Salford combined. 

I really hope this isn’t true, it would actually make me hate my own sport. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

The Dragons will have the highest turnover in SL this year bar maybe Leeds 

[Archie Gordon]

There are too many grade B clubs in SL.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

There are too many grade B clubs in SL.

Yes, wait till the fun starts at the end of the season when the defininative grading scores are awarded for SL placement in '25.

In this same podcast we are referring to it was put to Mr Jones what if a club misses out on promotion by a decimal point and then that club takes legal action, Jones said that is why we want full transparency, my question is has that been done yet if it has I haven't seen it? I for one would love to see how some clubs have gained the points they have already achieved, if it does go to court it will have to come out then.

In fact I would love to see full transparency of how all the clubs have achieved the points they have been awarded.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes, wait till the fun starts at the end of the season when the defininative grading scores are awarded for SL placement in '25.

In this same podcast we are referring to it was put to Mr Jones what if a club misses out on promotion by a decimal point and then that club takes legal action, Jones said that is why we want full transparency, my question is has that been done yet if it has I haven't seen it? I for one would love to see how some clubs have gained the points they have already achieved, if it does go to court it will have to come out then.

In fact I would love to see full transparency of how all the clubs have achieved the points they have been awarded.

The transparency is with the clubs and the system itself surely?

Its been said time and time again how its up to each club to decide if they want to release their grading score breakdown. That some have and some haven't is just the way it goes. 

[dboy]

16 hours ago, Pigeon Lofter said:

I'd have a stab at Castleford, Salford, Huddersfield and maybe Wakefield until their relegation being anti-Dragon, but that's just guesswork. 

None of them are shining examples of how elite sport in the UK should be run.

 

Carter certainly wasn't a big fan of overseas teams, whether that extended to wanting them gone from the  league is a different matter.

Of course, Carter is now gone and we don't know what Mr Ellis' views on the subject are.

Edited March 2 by dboy

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The transparency is with the clubs and the system itself surely?

Its been said time and time again how its up to each club to decide if they want to release their grading score breakdown. That some have and some haven't is just the way it goes. 

Thomas, the question inferred was if a club misses SL by a fraction of a point would you Mr Jones (the RFL) expect legal proceedings, I would, just the difference in funding of being a SL club as opposed to a Championship club is reason enough for the club concerned to challenge it.

What other way can the RFL defend any challenge other than being completely transparent with how they through IMG have awarded the points to the clubs.

And the other question is, if the clubs do not find out where they will be playing next year until this season is completed and a club - maybe if it is really close clubs - challenge it through a legal system will there be time to sort it out before the onset of the '25 season.

It is no good saying the clubs signed up to this, people make decisions all the time to which they change their mind later, the number of divorces is evidence of that.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thomas, the question inferred was if a club misses SL by a fraction of a point would you Mr Jones (the RFL) expect legal proceedings, I would, just the difference in funding of being a SL club as opposed to a Championship club is reason enough for the club concerned to challenge it.

What other way can the RFL defend any challenge other than being completely transparent with how they through IMG have awarded the points to the clubs.

And the other question is, if the clubs do not find out where they will be playing next year until this season is completed and a club - maybe if it is really close clubs - challenge it through a legal system will there be time to sort it out before the onset of the '25 season.

It is no good saying the clubs signed up to this, people make decisions all the time to which they change their mind later, the number of divorces is evidence of that.

The clubs understand the system and where they get points (and don't).

None of it is "subjective".

It is as simple as that. If they think the system is bent then they won't play in RFL competitions.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The clubs understand the system and where they get points (and don't).

None of it is "subjective".

It is as simple as that. If they think the system is bent then they won't play in RFL competitions.

Yes they know their own scores, but that is not the point is it, they would be curious of the other clubs scoring.

Did you not raise your eyebrows at some of the clubs preliminary scores and positions when they were announced I for one did, and would love to see why/what they were awarded the points for to achieve their score.

Edited March 2 by Harry Stottle

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes they know their own scores, but that is not the point is it, they would be curious of the other clubs scoring.

Did you not raise your eyebrows at some of the clubs preliminary scores and positions when they were announced I for one did, and would love to see why/what they were awarded the points for to achieve their score.

That's up to them to release if they would like.

Curiousity is nice but it doesn't confer any right. Any Clubs who thought to sue would essentially be doing so not because of their own grading, but because of some perceived incorrectness with someone else. That's a bit stupid...

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

That's up to them to release if they would like.

Curiousity is nice but it doesn't confer any right. Any Clubs who thought to sue would essentially be doing so not because of their own grading, but because of some perceived incorrectness with someone else. That's a bit stupid...

Off course as we already agreed they would know if their own score was correct or otherwise, but we are talking of the possibility of a miniscule difference in the scoring that could mean over a £million of funding and more money coming in weekly by being in SL, it would be stupid not to challenge it, would I trust the RFL to get everything right not in a month of Sundays.

[Hello]

On 01/03/2024 at 18:45, Worzel said:

Indeed. It's just like life in business: Great people want to work with other great people, even if it means they have to up their own game to do so, and good clubs also want to play against other good clubs.

Only the weak or poor performers ever have any interest in lowest-common-denominator decisions, to distract from their own self-inflicted failings. That's been the British rugby league disease for decades. 

This

[Just Browny]

https://www.totalrl.com/catalans-dragons-owner-bernard-guasch-hits-back-against-paying-for-super-league-opponents-travel-costs/

Strange piece here where Callum Walker doesn't appear to understand his own article or the comments from Guasch in it.

[Father Ted]

Initial reaction from me was that if a club can't afford to travel to Perpignan then they should relinquish their SL place.

Difficult in the C Cup where a Championship or lower division club could be drawn away to Catalans but it's a RFL comp and they could surely sort that problem out.

Getting Catalans to pay for opposition clubs's travel to fulfil their fixture seems just like the utterly stupid idea that only the RFL are capable of! 

[sam4731]

I love the idea that Catalans are not bringing anything to the pot in terms of broadcasting money so should have to pay for others, when almost all of the teams in SL (my own included) have a very limited reach, and not a glamorous city name that's selling TV subscriptions in their droves.

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

Initial reaction from me was that if a club can't afford to travel to Perpignan then they should relinquish their SL place.

Difficult in the C Cup where a Championship or lower division club could be drawn away to Catalans but it's a RFL comp and they could surely sort that problem out.

Getting Catalans to pay for opposition clubs's travel to fulfil their fixture seems just like the utterly stupid idea that only the RFL are capable of! 

To challenge this view somewhat, on your 2nd para, about the governing body sorting it out, what if their way of sorting it out was to not allow French teams into the UK pyramid.

People may come out with soundbites about it being a. European comp, but it ain't really, all the power is with the UK clubs and governing body. 

On a simple basis here, Catalans have had central funding totalling around £25m to £30m and as Gausch acknowledges have tipped nothing back into the central pot. Their presence brings costs of maybe £500k - which I expect in some years has wiped out the whole of the title sponsorship. 

Without pragmatism here (on both sides), then there is a real potential outcome that initiatives like Catalans, Toulouse, TWP etc get rejected out of hand. 

But I do think much of this is missing the point, we aren't tackling the root cause, that we have added French teams to the pyramid (and Canadian) , but have had no plans on how we would monetise it. And it still doesn't look like we've addressed that. We need commercial presence in France (and other places) and it can't be left to Catalans to resolve themselves. 

I've made the point many times, we needed French partnership here, whether that is the current governing body or a new French RL Com and they buy into SL. The Union URC has been brought up, and that is the kind of model, but we are so weak in France and Canada and Wales, that these clubs are all treated as outsiders, guests, rather than a valuable partner. 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

we needed French partnership here

This won't happen, because of this:

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

all the power is with the UK clubs and governing body

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

This won't happen, because of this:

Indeed. And the hope with IMG was that we may have a better understanding of the international markets, but I do also think that IMG are ruthlessly focused on commercial income, that I'm not sure will come from France. I'm not convinced they are bothered by the romance of French expansion that many of us are. Nor are they that bothered about the softer benefits to the sport imo. 

I'd like to see uo to four places sold to a French commercial arm, who could 'buy' places, with clear commercial terms agreed. 

But I agree with you, the power inbalance means it's almost impossible to see anythibg like that happen. 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed. And the hope with IMG was that we may have a better understanding of the international markets, but I do also think that IMG are ruthlessly focused on commercial income, that I'm not sure will come from France. I'm not convinced they are bothered by the romance of French expansion that many of us are. Nor are they that bothered about the softer benefits to the sport imo. 

I'd like to see uo to four places sold to a French commercial arm, who could 'buy' places, with clear commercial terms agreed. 

But I agree with you, the power inbalance means it's almost impossible to see anythibg like that happen. 

I agree with all that. Though I think IMG aren't daft enough to get rid of one of the big 5 or 6 RL clubs in the Northern Hemisphere either. If Catalans were like Salford or Wakey on and off the pitch it would be different, but they clearly aren't. 

I think there absolutely has to be clarity and strategy around French involvement in UK RL. As it stands there isn't that and as we've both said that won't happen because of where power lies.