Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[mrfranco]

1 minute ago, SL17 said:

I still don’t get this TV deal. Catalans had Bien what monetary value did that being to SL?

Toulouse would probably follow suit.

So what are these TV deals on offer and how do they benefit SL?

As I understand if (from reading these forums...) little if any money changed hands in the BeIN deal... I believe BeIN paid for the cost of filming, etc., and Sky were happy to take their feed for every home game in return for giving BeIN the rights to show it in France. No money for Catalans or the Super League pot as a whole. Meanwhile, BeIN have pulled out for next year, so there is NO deal in place for the French games for next season.

This is why I picked up Parksider on his constant berating of Toronto for not having a paying TV deal, when the French team we already have haven't been exactly filling up the TV money pot for Super League, and Toulouse don't have a deal either.

It has to be said that the chances of getting a paid deal are surely better in SL - but that applies as much to Toronto as to Toulouse!

[Lowdesert]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Some great posts Marty but NOT this one. Why do you think they should be allowed in when as you say TWP under a salary cap will not set Superleague alight, and even less so when SL fans start to realise they are an English club based in Manchester pretending to be Canadian. As for developing players in "10 years time" not even the starry eyed on here thought it could be any less than 15 years, but have you forgotten that they had North America players and they sacked them for goodness sake? They don't want them.

And if they do survive where does this go, even Perez stated one NA club in Superleague was pointless, which real pro club here  then stands down to semi-pro to make way for made up Ottawa? and how do you actually get a second NA club in Superleague when the costs are so great you need another owner willing to lose many $$Millions? 

And how does the game look "relevant", forward thinking and expansive with clubs fans will soon find out they aren't North American, It's the old Leigh in disguise this time, and who next to lose out? Salford to step down for Ottawa??

You say "everyone wins" - really Marty??  You'd better have a really good think about that mate......read on......

They are a phoney club, they didn't develop NA players they sacked them. They didn't find a TV deal they paid for one, their apologists list all sorts of supposed achievement like your "spreading the gospel to far more people new people than SL ever have" which is the biggest made up baloney going. They can't even spread the gospel in Toronto without giving away tickets, or setting up beer festivals so fans can drink all afternoon rather than watch the RL.

What you two completely forget in your myopic focus on the TWP phoneys is that the game can easily expand at SL level and increase the game's footprint, and become more relevant by actually rewarding Toulouse Olympic for the many many years they have been working hard to go professional and join Superleague, increasing the Anglo French flavour, providing an attractive and affordable new cosmopolitan venue for fans here (and vice versa) to visit, and providing a widening of the French player pool and french international team, plus find a paying TV deal with French TV as they'd have exciting derby games to offer.

It's easy for people like you to name call me, or to just dismiss me as anti-expansion, but I've been behind all the expansion efforts since Fulham and am squarely behind Toulouse....As the likes of Lenegan,  Pearson and McManus are as they came out and said so....so I really don't know what's going on but it will be a really really sad day if they bottle it after praising TO's efforts and achievements so much, for so long.

Toulouse really deserve it. As long ago as 1996 they applied for Superleague and lost to phoney Paris, in 2005 they made the Challenge cup semi finals after beating Widnes, they were ready to join SL in 2006 but lost out to Catalans, they finally joined the championships in 2009 but promotion was not available, they joined yet again and invited the SL bosses across so they could discuss what they needed to do to get into Superleague, an ambition the SL bosses shared - but they wanted players and a TV deal. TO run reserves, there are now players and  juniors, there is a chance of a TV deal, the Maire is supportive, what's not to like??

And yet somehow they aren't even been given a mention as the posts fill up the pages of this thread all trying to convince us TWP have some sort of substance which they don't. It's one man's wallet in a Rugby Union continent that lost the RL world cup through apathy towards RL. 

For goodness sake wake up expansionists and campaign for Toulouse Olympic in Superleague next year. They deserve their chance after 23 years of trying and all the hard work they have done.  

Changed your tune after all the gunk you spouted about how TO had to provide a TV deal.

Why not just go back and enjoy watching your RU.

[Omott91]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 It's the old Leigh in disguise this time, and who next to lose out? Salford to step down for Ottawa??

It's one man's wallet in a Rugby Union continent that lost the RL world cup through apathy towards RL. 

More mistruths and lies.

Leigh are in the exact same situation as they were before Twp's inception on and off the field, fighting for promotion. If anything, their recentish troubles are internal thanks to their owner, nothing to do with twp.

US rl world cups demise was due to Moore Group and their financials, nothing to do with Rugby union or NA's perception of league. My opinion is that they quite like league, seeing as twp achieve much higher crowds than NA club rugby union has ever achieved.

But this type of reality doesn't sit right with your anti NA agenda.          

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

If they had a roofed stadium it would be possible, but before that, we might have to have discussions about jet lag and player welfare.  There has to be some work done to make it a level playing field for all.

It will never be a level playing field if TWP are involved, they will either benefit or have it harder than other teams simply because of the distance involved, e.g. will they be excused short turnarounds as other teams when they have to put up with Thursday night games, what about the teams drawn away to them in the loopy fixtures who have to visit Toronto twice, conversely if they have to play some 'home' games over here the teams who play them will not have to travel to Toronto, how will the other teams who don't get that benefit feel? And what if a teams fixtures falls so they are in France one week and the following week in Canada or vice a versa, as could possibly happen with Fev or York in the next few weeks.

SL in my opinion will not be as flexible as the Championship(s) clubs have been and should they be? 11 clubs having to do things out of the ordinary to accomodate 1 club, nahh, 1 club to fall in line with 11is the simplist way.

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It will never be a level playing field if TWP are involved, they will either benefit or have it harder than other teams simply because of the distance involved, e.g. will they be excused short turnarounds as other teams when they have to put up with Thursday night games, what about the teams drawn away to them in the loopy fixtures who have to visit Toronto twice, conversely if they have to play some 'home' games over here the teams who play them will not have to travel to Toronto, how will the other teams who don't get that benefit feel? And what if a teams fixtures falls so they are in France one week and the following week in Canada or vice a versa, as could possibly happen with Fev or York in the next few weeks.

SL in my opinion will not be as flexible as the Championship(s) clubs have been and should they be? 11 clubs having to do things out of the ordinary to accomodate 1 club, nahh, 1 club to fall in line with 11is the simplist way.

This is something that must have been considered for some time as, in our view, it appears to be so obvious.  But, minimum standards have been mentioned, not fixtures.

Might Sky not be so bothered?  It could be that they see other TV opportunity with any future Partners?  

I doubt they could just be given a fixture list and then told ‘get on with it’ - that works both ways with the SL clubs, so yeah, they should fall in line.  

Are the SL clubs gambling on another Champs club getting through other than TWP? I doubt it, but it wouldn’t surprise me.  

[Smudger06]

5 hours ago, SL17 said:

I still don’t get this TV deal. Catalans had Bien what monetary value did that being to SL?

Toulouse would probably follow suit.

So what are these TV deals on offer and how do they benefit SL?

The BeIN Sports deal brings no monetary value to SL. 

BeIN Sports hold the rights to Catalans Dragons home games because they are willing to pay the TV quality production costs. So they won the rights with the highest bid €0 !!! As others would have charged Dragons much like they charged TWP. 

BeIN then does a deal with Sky, it gives Sky rights to simulcast it's coverage in the UK & Ireland, Sky doesn't pay for that, in return it gives BeIN the rights to simulcast it's SL Games in France (a swap) 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Roy Haggerty said:

Why?

 

Serious question, because I genuinely don’t understand this argument. 

Leave the loop fixtures out and my team play each other team home and away. Each of those other teams play the rest home and away. If we’re starting from the assumption that home is an advantage and away is a disadvantage, then every team is treated the same. None of that is affected by the frequency/order of home and away matches.

 

If the argument is that lots of home matches on the trot is a bigger advantage then we also have to accept the argument that lots of away matches on the trot is a bigger disadvantage. 

 

So so why does it matter whether a team plays its home and away matches on alternate weeks (which none do, actually), or in blocks? Each team playing Toronto or Catalans only has to make the long journey once a season. If those clubs played in blocks or alternate weeks they’d still only have to make the journey once a season. 

 

So so I can see how making Catalans/Toronto play alternate weeks is a genuine disadvantage for them. But for the life of me I cannot understand why the order in which they play their home/away fixtures is of any relevance to the other teams. 

When are the Toronto players at home or away? 

I used to joke with some of the Leigh lads who were playing for Toronto about where their next fixture was asking them "are you away this week, staying at home in your own bed" or "are you at home this week, living away"

The hardship for the players is not playing their away fixtures that is the easy part for them.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

We did it this season (Leeds) because of stadium upgrade and ended up flirting with relegation all season. 

You also flirted with relegation in two other very recent seasons, what is the excuse for those season's?

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

They were the same organisation at the time though.

Yes they were, but now they are of their own controll, they have all but left the RFL who are the body who let Toronto in through Nigel Wood, should SL legally carry over any liabilities, I am not sure, are you?

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

Trying to find more details of the vote that allowed them into the RFL pyramid, but it's pretty difficult as it was 4 years ago now. A couple of articles d suggest 39/40 clubs voted for it, which does suggest SL clubs had a vote and it was a unanimous yes. Would just be interesting to know what the actual vote was for.

Interesting, any idea who the dissenter was?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Interesting, any idea who the dissenter was?

Sorry no clumsy wording from me, one article says 39 clubs voted another said 40.

[Toby Chopra]

46 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

The BeIN Sports deal brings no monetary value to SL. 

BeIN Sports hold the rights to Catalans Dragons home games because they are willing to pay the TV quality production costs. So they won the rights with the highest bid €0 !!! As others would have charged Dragons much like they charged TWP. 

BeIN then does a deal with Sky, it gives Sky rights to simulcast it's coverage in the UK & Ireland, Sky doesn't pay for that, in return it gives BeIN the rights to simulcast it's SL Games in France (a swap) 

However that does bring a financial benefit. 

Without the 14 French games that Sky gets from "swapping" coverage, it won't pay as much for the main contract. Which means SL loses out. 

As long as French and Canadian teams can contribute broadcast quality games into the pool, they more than pay for their place in SL. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

What perplexes me is why does Robert Elstone care about if Toronto are sustainable or not and what they can add to SL. He and SL have not put a bean into Toronto and stand to lose nothing in fact all clubs will be sharing an extra slice of the TV money. 

If in a few years the money men leave and the go belly up.. So what!! You could say the same about half the clubs in SL. 

That's why I think it is nothing but a shakedown for an extra few quid and if I were an advisor to the Toronto board and owners I would advise them to get as far away from RL as possible. 

Yep, totally agree with that Matt!

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Loup said:

Thank you for this thoughtful post, it's very helpful to understand your concerns. You note that the SL pool is depleting even without the Wolfpack, so how does rugby league reverse the trend? Your point is well taken that it will take a long time, so why not take the opportunity to allow North American teams in and get started?

When do you suggest Loup, do you believe it should happen before TWP have prooved to be a good fit with the British game? I have used the term 'prototype' previously to describe TWP and I still consider that both the club themselves and the game over here are still on a learning curve with the functionality of it all.

In my world 'prototypes' are prooven first before the commodity goes into full production, that way a lot of effort, time and expense can be avoided should the 'prototype' for whatever reason fails.

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes they were, but now they are of their own controll, they have all but left the RFL who are the body who let Toronto in through Nigel Wood, should SL legally carry over any liabilities, I am not sure, are you?

I'd imagine that any commitments should be carried through. Though I don't claim to know the ins and outs of the deal signed

[Big Picture]

8 hours ago, SL17 said:

I still don’t get this TV deal. Catalans had Bien what monetary value did that being to SL?

Toulouse would probably follow suit.

So what are these TV deals on offer and how do they benefit SL?

Reportedly the Bein TV deal paid a modest amount though I don't recall just how much it paid.  The reports said that Elstone wanted a higher amount and Bein said no to that and walked away.

[Private Baldrick]

All this talk over the last 34 pages is immaterial, Fev are going to win the Grand Final and get promoted and save Mr Elstone's and SL blushes.

[Marty Funkhouser]

12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Some great posts Marty but NOT this one. Why do you think they should be allowed in when as you say TWP under a salary cap will not set Superleague alight, and even less so when SL fans start to realise they are an English club based in Manchester pretending to be Canadian. As for developing players in "10 years time" not even the starry eyed on here thought it could be any less than 15 years, but have you forgotten that they had North America players and they sacked them for goodness sake? They don't want them.

And if they do survive where does this go, even Perez stated one NA club in Superleague was pointless, which real pro club here  then stands down to semi-pro to make way for made up Ottawa? and how do you actually get a second NA club in Superleague when the costs are so great you need another owner willing to lose many $$Millions? 

And how does the game look "relevant", forward thinking and expansive with clubs fans will soon find out they aren't North American, It's the old Leigh in disguise this time, and who next to lose out? Salford to step down for Ottawa??

You say "everyone wins" - really Marty??  You'd better have a really good think about that mate......read on......

 

They should be allowed in, if they win the Grand Final, for the simple fact that the competition as it stands awards promotion to that team. There has not been any caveats regards other matters for some time aside from the insistence on London installing extra seats. In saying that I am also of the opinion that it is right and proper for the RFL/SL to conduct due diligence and/or ask for assurances regarding Toronto/Mr Argyle's intentions and resources for the simple fact that this is a highly unusual situation of a club 3500 miles away in a differnt continent joining a UK/European premier competition and has the potential to incur significant costs and issues to the competitions integrity.

Any development of players is surely a win/win, the game desperately needs more sources of players and Toronto will need homegrown players if they are to have any longevity .The ESL and Championship clubs need to address raising the pool of players and if losing one or two players per club to Toronto accelerates that then great.  I am not sure who loses/can lose if players are indeed produced in Canada and/or it promotes the needed growth or action here.

The 10 years is obviously a minimum and is the glaring issue in starting in virgin territory, it might be 20 or 25 , that is down to Toronto and Mr Argyle. As stated they/he will soon find out that the competitions regulations mean its not as easy as just buying a succesful team within the cap. His motivations are truly unknown and opaque. It will quickly become clear however whether he is really in it for the long term and has any interest in establishing some proper foundations.

I suspect it won't last and I personally think New York is a zero chance. Ottawa is another puzzle and must be a very slim chance but they have gone to trouble of buying a franchise . However if in the meantime the cost to the ESL is zero, the integrity of the competition is maintained and Toronto generate publicity , coverage and heightened interest in SL and aid even slightly towards the obtaining of a new broadcasting contract needed to maintain the game in its current guise for a while longer then why not?

[Loup]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

When do you suggest Loup, do you believe it should happen before TWP have prooved to be a good fit with the British game? I have used the term 'prototype' previously to describe TWP and I still consider that both the club themselves and the game over here are still on a learning curve with the functionality of it all.

In my world 'prototypes' are prooven first before the commodity goes into full production, that way a lot of effort, time and expense can be avoided should the 'prototype' for whatever reason fails.

The two should happen simultaneously. TWP in Super League will increase the chances for more media coverage, more fans, more interest on both sides of the pond, more sponsorship, and more opportunities for RL to start involving kids in schools and clubs. We already have some kids' clubs starting up (which of course Parky scoffed at) but that, and a recent training session for referees, show things are getting started. Once TWP join Toronto's top-tier pro sports clubs, this will ramp up.

Trying to develop top-tier Canadian RL players without a top-tier team to aspire to is a fool's errand. It's another one of those Labours of Hercules that anti-Wolfpack fans keep chucking our way.

In my world, there's something called 'synergy'. The interaction of two ideas with potential that create a sum that's greater than its individual parts.

[Mattrhino]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You also flirted with relegation in two other very recent seasons, what is the excuse for those season's?

Yeah it was no way the main reason but it was not in any way an advantage. That's why I don't get the issue of blocks of games. 

[Pigeon Lofter]

I wonder if TWP will become more attractive to SL bosses if they sign Money Bill Williams after the RWC?

[fighting irish]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It will never be a level playing field if TWP are involved, they will either benefit or have it harder than other teams simply because of the distance involved, e.g. will they be excused short turnarounds as other teams when they have to put up with Thursday night games, what about the teams drawn away to them in the loopy fixtures who have to visit Toronto twice, conversely if they have to play some 'home' games over here the teams who play them will not have to travel to Toronto, how will the other teams who don't get that benefit feel? And what if a teams fixtures falls so they are in France one week and the following week in Canada or vice a versa, as could possibly happen with Fev or York in the next few weeks.

SL in my opinion will not be as flexible as the Championship(s) clubs have been and should they be? 11 clubs having to do things out of the ordinary to accomodate 1 club, nahh, 1 club to fall in line with 11is the simplist way.

No wonder parky liked this offering, its a load of codswallop. 

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It will never be a level playing field if TWP are involved, they will either benefit or have it harder than other teams simply because of the distance involved, e.g. will they be excused short turnarounds as other teams when they have to put up with Thursday night games, what about the teams drawn away to them in the loopy fixtures who have to visit Toronto twice, conversely if they have to play some 'home' games over here the teams who play them will not have to travel to Toronto, how will the other teams who don't get that benefit feel? And what if a teams fixtures falls so they are in France one week and the following week in Canada or vice a versa, as could possibly happen with Fev or York in the next few weeks.

SL in my opinion will not be as flexible as the Championship(s) clubs have been and should they be? 11 clubs having to do things out of the ordinary to accomodate 1 club, nahh, 1 club to fall in line with 11is the simplist way.

The fixture issue is solvable Harry , once again they play their loop fixtures 1st , starting with an away , then home and away with the 3 ' homes ' being played at Championship stadiums either in Lancs or Yorkshire , this would take them to mid/late April when Lamport would become available 

Then play in groups of 2 home and away which would even out the flying giving no noticable advantage to anybody 

It isn't really hard to sort out 

[TboneFromTO]

6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The fixture issue is solvable Harry , once again they play their loop fixtures 1st , starting with an away , then home and away with the 3 ' homes ' being played at Championship stadiums either in Lancs or Yorkshire , this would take them to mid/late April when Lamport would become available 

Then play in groups of 2 home and away which would even out the flying giving no noticable advantage to anybody 

It isn't really hard to sort out 

It really is a sensible accomodation to make!

Especially if the alternative is for some clubs to have to play in the snow

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

It really is a sensible accomodation to make!

Especially if the alternative is for some clubs to have to play in the snow

If we end up with 14 then my suggestion doesn't work , and it'll be " get the shovells out " , unless of course by then global warming has sorted it for us