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GB Lions should not have been brought back

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6 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Well if it, it's so high profile that doesn't even warrant a mention on the BBC website. Not really something to aspire to...

Just checked and it's the amateur/community side playing.

So, after this tour, when does our aspirant Welshie get to turn out for Great Britain?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

So, after this tour, when does our aspirant Welshie get to turn out for Great Britain?

Agreed-  it's rubbish! You won't find any arguments from me on that front! I've provided my ideas for solutions in earlier posts on this thread.

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I won’t quote all the responses but the long and short of it is, you either work at something and bear with it until it bears fruit. Or you don’t.

Wales etc having no games is part of the problem. The answer isn’t to say ‘they don’t have enough meaningful games, let’s pretend they are playing for GB’. It’s to actually develop those players OR just admit your team is comprised solely of English players and call it England. 

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1 minute ago, Johnoco said:

I won’t quote all the responses but the long and short of it is, you either work at something and bear with it until it bears fruit. Or you don’t.

Wales etc having no games is part of the problem. The answer isn’t to say ‘they don’t have enough meaningful games, let’s pretend they are playing for GB’. It’s to actually develop those players OR just admit your team is comprised solely of English players and call it England. 

My proposed solutions detailed earlier would provide opportunities to develop those players, but the reality is they would probably need to utilise heritage players in the short to medium term to make them more competitive. Otherwise we may have to wait 20-30 years before we have a meaningful international game. I think we could develop the international game much more quickly.

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2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

My proposed solutions detailed earlier would provide opportunities to develop those players, but the reality is they would probably need to utilise heritage players in the short to medium term to make them more competitive. Otherwise we may have to wait 20-30 years before we have a meaningful international game. I think we could develop the international game much more quickly.

But we have used umpteen heritage players for a long time to no positive effect or growth.

Look at Ireland, Quarter final of the WC in 2000. And had a genuine Irish star player in there. Without a serious plan or backing, what’s it come to? No further, arguably backwards AND that star player also represented GB.
 

So where are the other Irish players in his wake? The path to represent GB doesn’t exactly seem to have resulted in any other players making the cut. 
 

I’m not being dismissive of your views, you make good points but the reality is different.

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1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

It has to be the full England side, otherwise it won't have a sufficiently high profile, and consequently broadcasters, players and spectators won't buy in to it, and it'll die on its backside straight away.

England winning every year honestly isn't a problem - the wider public do not care one jot. It's only rugby league fans who care about that, and we need to use this tournament to broaden our spectator base.

Moreover, I think it would make these other nations more competitive over time, and I'm not sure that it would be as one-sided as people think. Case in point, look how Tonga have shaken things up in the past 3 years. Would anyone have predicted that 4 years ago?

Tonga story is brilliant 

i don't think you would get a full England team, clubs would be against it and little motivation for players 

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

So you develop those countries instead of constantly just having bogus GB squads. Getting to the stage where a competitive Wales team could play involves long term planning though, something RL just can’t be arsed with. 

They have tried and continue to try but the Welsh prefer RU. We only got Welsh into GB because we were professional and they weren't. So we can blame RFL or anyone we care to point a finger at but RL in Wales is very small and will always be. Yes we can improve the standard of that small percentage but not to a level that will consistently challenge England. If the RFL invested half their available budget there would soon be people complaining they are wasting money.

so it's nothing to do with not being arsed, it needs to be achievable and within budget

i feel this wish of a consistently competitive Welsh RL team is well meaning but not likely in the grand scheme of things. Competitive at their level against similar nations yes but not the big four 

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9 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

But we have used umpteen heritage players for a long time to no positive effect or growth.

Look at Ireland, Quarter final of the WC in 2000. And had a genuine Irish star player in there. Without a serious plan or backing, what’s it come to? No further, arguably backwards AND that star player also represented GB.
 

So where are the other Irish players in his wake? The path to represent GB doesn’t exactly seem to have resulted in any other players making the cut. 
 

I’m not being dismissive of your views, you make good points but the reality is different.

Exactly - the current situation is rubbish. That's why I've proposed an annual Euro Championships involving the full England side to help give the home nations regular, meaningful fixtures.

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26 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

I won’t quote all the responses but the long and short of it is, you either work at something and bear with it until it bears fruit. Or you don’t.

Wales etc having no games is part of the problem. The answer isn’t to say ‘they don’t have enough meaningful games, let’s pretend they are playing for GB’. It’s to actually develop those players OR just admit your team is comprised solely of English players and call it England. 

Or have both? Wales playing regular against similar teams at their level, using the opportunity to gain a slot in the GB team at a higher level, I don't think a GB team stops development in Wales, just enhances it 

Edited by Fuzzy
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1 minute ago, Fuzzy said:

They have tried and continue to try but the Welsh prefer RU. We only got Welsh into GB because we were professional and they weren't. So we can blame RFL or anyone we care to point a finger at but RL in Wales is very small and will always be. Yes we can improve the standard of that small percentage but not to a level that will consistently challenge England. If the RFL invested half their available budget there would soon be people complaining they are wasting money.

so it's nothing to do with not being arsed, it needs to be achievable and within budget

i feel this wish of a consistently competitive Welsh RL team is well meaning but not likely in the grand scheme of things. Competitive at their level against similar nations yes but not the big four 

Okay, the Welsh aren’t interested. So we accept that and call it.....England. 

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1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Exactly - the current situation is rubbish. That's why I've proposed an annual Euro Championships involving the full England side to help give the home nations regular, meaningful fixtures.

Fair call

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Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Exactly - the current situation is rubbish. That's why I've proposed an annual Euro Championships involving the full England side to help give the home nations regular, meaningful fixtures.

Don't want to repeat myself but which SL teams would support this? 

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11 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

i don't think you would get a full England team, clubs would be against it and little motivation for players 

This is why there has to be a significant tournament at the end of the season for players to want to be a part of, so that they put their hands up for selection in the Summer. If players want to be part of a World Cup or GB series that Autumn, then they'll need to put themselves in the frame by playing in the Summer.

The clubs issue is a bigger sticking point, which is why it would need strong, persuasive leadership, and also excellent organisation to get all the ducks in a row. It's for this reason why I think it unfortunately won't happen.

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Just now, Johnoco said:

Okay, the Welsh aren’t interested. So we accept that and call it.....England. 

That's very defeatist, the Welsh available players would be interested very much so, but they have to be good enough

if we want them interested you don't manage it by eliminating them and denying progression pathways 

 

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Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

This is why there has to be a significant tournament at the end of the season for players to want to be a part of, so that they put their hands up for selection in the Summer. If players want to be part of a World Cup or GB series that Autumn, then they'll need to put themselves in the frame by playing in the Summer.

The clubs issue is a bigger sticking point, which is why it would need strong, persuasive leadership, and also excellent organisation to get all the ducks in a row. It's for this reason why I think it unfortunately won't happen.

I just don't see it being supported. If it's not competitive then it wouldn't gain respect or interest.

there was a Euro comp with France, I really enjoyed this comp, what happened to it?

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10 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

I just don't see it being supported.

Unfortunately I agree. But the short-sightedness of the clubs needs to be challenged in the long term interests of the sport.

10 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

If it's not competitive then it wouldn't gain respect or interest.

Firstly, I do not think it would be as one-sided as people think. Especially over time. Secondly, while RL fans may not be keen, it is the countless numbers of the wider viewing public that this would need to attract. I had workmates who had little interest in RL who went to Coventry and loved watching England play Scotland. It was competitive, and they thoroughly enjoyed themselves. They were far less interested in the more closely matched Australia v NZ game that followed, purely because it wasn't England. It is these types of people that are out there waiting to be converted to our sport. They won't be the least bit bothered about England winning comfortably all the time - they'll enjoy it. And the other home nations all love an opportunity to knock England off their perch. This is the same in any sport.

10 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

there was a Euro comp with France, I really enjoyed this comp, what happened to it?

Do you mean the one with the full England side and Wales? Jettisoned after one season.

Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek

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13 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

That's very defeatist, the Welsh available players would be interested very much so, but they have to be good enough

if we want them interested you don't manage it by eliminating them and denying progression pathways 

 

Eh? You just suggested that very thing as the Welsh were only interested in RU. 

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2 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Eh? You just suggested that very thing as the Welsh were only interested in RU. 

It's quite simple,99% of rugby fans in Wales follow RU, some will have a passing interest in league.

If we are referring to players,then 100% of Welsh rugby league players will, I suspect aspire to play for Wales and GB. It's just that the pool will be small, so the point stands you won't grow this small pool if you remove the pathways. 

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2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Unfortunately I agree. But the short-sightedness of the clubs needs to be challenged in the long term interests of the sport.

Firstly, I do not think it would be as one-sided as people think. Especially over time. Secondly, while RL fans may not be keen, it is the countless numbers of the wider viewing public that this would need to attract. I had workmates who had little interest in RL who went to Coventry and loved watching England play Scotland. It was competitive, and they thoroughly enjoyed themselves. They were far less interested in the more closely matched Australia v NZ game that followed, purely because it wasn't England. It is these types of people that are out there waiting to be converted to our sport. They won't be the least bit bothered about England winning comfortably all the time - they'll enjoy it. And the other home nations all love an opportunity to knock England off their perch. This is the same in any sport.

Do you mean the one with the full England side and Wales? Jettisoned after one season.

From memory it  included France but not England and ran for a few seasons 

id support this of it will included Welsh players rather than filled with English, the standard would Ben less at Dorset but its developing Welsh players rather than the English SL players in a different shirt  

Edited by Fuzzy

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58 minutes ago, Fuzzy said:

id support this of it will included Welsh players rather than filled with English, the standard would Ben less at Dorset but its developing Welsh players rather than the English SL players in a different shirt  

But we've done it before and it hasn't worked in developing Welsh players to a sufficiently high standard - the best Welsh players don't make themselves available because it isn't sufficiently high profile. There is a previous interview in the public domain with Ben Flower where he's said as much.

Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek
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I've gone from being quietly hopeful at the reintroduction of the lions to totally against based just on how this tour is being ran. 

Regan Grace being Welsh, and therefore not in the England setup, apparently going against him being a late call up for this GB side is a disgrace. Wayne Bennett is using this side as a trial for England which totally devalues the concept and completely delegitimises his position as head coach of the GB side.

Either have GB as the touring pinnacle that is separate from the England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland sides, or don't have it at all.

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21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I've gone from being quietly hopeful at the reintroduction of the lions to totally against based just on how this tour is being ran. 

Regan Grace being Welsh, and therefore not in the England setup, apparently going against him being a late call up for this GB side is a disgrace. Wayne Bennett is using this side as a trial for England which totally devalues the concept and completely delegitimises his position as head coach of the GB side.

Either have GB as the touring pinnacle that is separate from the England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland sides, or don't have it at all.

Agree 100%. The way this tour has been planned and run is completely averse to how I wish it would've been brought back, and adds plenty of weight to the arguments of those people who are/were against the return of GB.

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I would go back to what they had before. I'd play as GB for major competitions for three years, and only use England for the World Cup when there is a need to have more teams.

You can still arrange Wales and Scotland (and even England/England A) matches throughout the three years that GB is playing.

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19 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I would go back to what they had before. I'd play as GB for major competitions for three years, and only use England for the World Cup when there is a need to have more teams.

You can still arrange Wales and Scotland (and even England/England A) matches throughout the three years that GB is playing.

Absolute twaddle

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19 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

I would go back to what they had before. I'd play as GB for major competitions for three years, and only use England for the World Cup when there is a need to have more teams.

You can still arrange Wales and Scotland (and even England/England A) matches throughout the three years that GB is playing.

You sir have no idea what u are talking about..

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