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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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21 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Hopefully a Championship/ L1 broadcasting deal will come along. You up for that? 

Why as fans are you not asking the club to start in champ or L1 again? The obvious backer was a weasel! Surely your club can regroup and play your games over here. 
 

Would love to see a Championship/L1 TV deal, not sure where it’s coming from though.

I don’t know enough about LiVolsi to agree with you, however I have been worried from the outset that he was only in it for his grooming business. As I have said many times it’s not enough to ask if the prospective owner has the wealth, their level of long term commitment also needs to be established, Richard Branson is probably the best example of a very rich man who got involved with RL, but had no long term commitment or love of the sport.

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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I'm on the outside here, so I have no idea what TWPs presentation was like, or the new man behind it, or the reception it received from the other clubs and Elstone. It's only based on rumour and experience. So it's difficult to really comment on any of that.

What I will say though is that (and I'm not alone in this) I've spent 10 years saying the game in England is heading in one direction only - a small, local competition played in front of stagnant crowds and stagnant TV viewing figures, with low salaries and low expectations, and where any player with ambition will leave for the NRL (and occasionally union). Well, I think we're already at that point and everyone in the game knows it. The clubs are simply scrabbling around looking for enough scraps to keep themselves alive. There's no plan for growth either at club or governing body level, and no desire for it even, just a desperate attempt to stay alive. The difference between SL and the NRL - on and off the pitch is night and day.

RL in England's only hope for the future is to get as many players as possible playing in the NRL and hope the England team gets some success off the back of it. That won't help the clubs grow but it will keep them alive.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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My overall feelings were of sadness yesterday when I saw the headline, but now I have actually read the disingenuous quotes from Elstone I feel quite angry. I can't wait to see the reports on the strategic value and incremental revenue gains added by future and incumbent English teams.

Very disappointed in my own club which I thought was one of the few forward-thinking ones.

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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3 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I'm on the outside here, so I have no idea what TWPs presentation was like, or the new man behind it, or the reception it received from the other clubs and Elstone. It's only based on rumour and experience. So it's difficult to really comment on any of that.

What I will say though is that (and I'm not alone in this) I've spent 10 years saying the game in England is heading in one direction only - a small, local competition played in front of stagnant crowds and stagnant TV viewing figures, with low salaries and low expectations, and where any player with ambition will leave for the NRL (and occasionally union). Well, I think we're already at that point and everyone in the game knows it. The clubs are simply scrabbling around looking for enough scraps to keep themselves alive. There's no plan for growth either at club or governing body level, and no desire for it even, just a desperate attempt to stay alive. The difference between SL and the NRL - on and off the pitch is night and day.

RL in England's only hope for the future is to get as many players as possible playing in the NRL and hope the England team gets some success off the back of it. That won't help the clubs grow but it will keep them alive.

I think this is broadly right. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of reach decision or circumstance, the direction of travel for English RL, that of retrenchment initially and basically contraction subsequently, is now pretty clear.

And this gives some people, fewer and fewer each time, deep and abiding joy.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Absolutely gutted about this decision.

 Elstone should fall for this. He had a preconceived idea from the start and his comments today was pure bs.

 Will every club and indeed current super league clubs be held to the same standard? What does a team in Castleford add? 

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17 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

Absolutely gutted about this decision.

 Elstone should fall for this. He had a preconceived idea from the start and his comments today was pure bs.

 Will every club and indeed current super league clubs be held to the same standard? What does a team in Castleford add? 

If you're going to hold all SL clubs to minimum standards, you will have a SL of 5-6 clubs and licencing is/was a worthless process IF you are strictly applying those standards to all clubs.

Being in Toronto, subject to massive differences in geography, weather, accessibility etc, course they will be treated differently. They have to be. Their case is an extraordinary one.

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4 hours ago, SL17 said:

I think Ottawa are a different breed of club. They can ride COVID-19 currently given they are building. I most certainly wouldn’t write them off. TWP could get on the same level and go again. That would mean investment and Derby matches.

From the outside looking in Ottawa appear to be built differently but the main issue is that SL have no guidance or plan that they can hand to Ottawa that clearly details what is expected of Ottawa should they gain promotion to SL.

So in a few years time we will all be on a similar thread talking about whether Ottawa should be accepted into SL.  What a crock of @#&$&@# it is.

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2 hours ago, rlno1 said:

If he was a conman, why did St.Helens and Leeds vote for them. The are two of the most professional clubs in the league.

That’s what a I can’t figure out either.

Why did 3 of SL’s best run clubs vote for them?  I can understand why those clubs finding it tough financially would vote against TWP and take their additional 1/12 th of the pot but what did Saints, Leeds and Catalans and the RFL see that others either didn’t or refused to see.  Or was it that the other 8 clubs plus SL saw something clearly wrong but the RFL, Saints, Leeds or Catalans didn’t.

It’s a shame that the truth will probably never come out.

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4 hours ago, SL17 said:

 Branson was involved with the NRL. Hence Fulham are the London Broncos. He made money but couldn’t go the full path. Perez wanted the same thing using Argyles money. 
Argyle shifted to selling products and Perez said bye bye.

A consortium member then decided he’ll have a pop at it. Lost before he even started.

London Broncos came about because of Barry Maranta and Brisbane Broncos taking over the London Crusaders. Branson came on board later, firstly with a part stake then taking over from Maranta and Brisbane completely.

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4 hours ago, nadera78 said:

RL in England's only hope for the future is to get as many players as possible playing in the NRL and hope the England team gets some success off the back of it. That won't help the clubs grow but it will keep them alive.

That's not much of a plan when the England team rarely plays.

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5 hours ago, SL17 said:

 Branson was involved with the NRL. Hence Fulham are the London Broncos. He made money but couldn’t go the full path. Perez wanted the same thing using Argyles money. 
Argyle shifted to selling products and Perez said bye bye.

A consortium member then decided he’ll have a pop at it. Lost before he even started.

Completely wrong there the BRISBANE BRONCOS director Barry Marranta  took over the London Crusaders and with BB permission re-branded the club.

Branson bought in a % after his son started to watch a few games and then offered to increase his shareholding to 49% on the day of the meeting his representative held a gun to Marrantas head asking for 90% + of the shares for the previously agreed amount the club had bills to pay and poor Barry Marranta was left having to throw the towel in.

Although Branson pumped in monies via the shirt sponsorship his tenure at the LB was nothing short of a disaster with various clueless Virgim employees being brought in to run a Rugby League Club.

In the end tricky dickie gave the club a 1 year notice of getting out (Via the shirt sponsorship) and the club was sold onto to Ian Lenegan and David Hughes (Who I think was maybe already a director) who between them had to sort out the debts and mess that Virgin left behind.

Sadly the draw of Wigan (His hometown club) led Ian to eventually move on leaving David Hughes and the rest is history (David should be in the honours list for services to rugby league what a great benefactor he has been to rugby league)

BTW for those that dont know David childhood team I believe was Swinton.

 

Paul

 

 

 

Edited by ATLANTISMAN
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23 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

That’s what a I can’t figure out either.

Why did 3 of SL’s best run clubs vote for them?  I can understand why those clubs finding it tough financially would vote against TWP and take their additional 1/12 th of the pot but what did Saints, Leeds and Catalans and the RFL see that others either didn’t or refused to see.  Or was it that the other 8 clubs plus SL saw something clearly wrong but the RFL, Saints, Leeds or Catalans didn’t.

It’s a shame that the truth will probably never come out.

Catalans may have voted for them on the possibility that, as SL commercial revenue continues to shrink, they might be next in the firing line. Ask the same questions that were asked of TWP:

What commercial and short/medium term strategic value do Catalans bring to SL?

No Sky subscriptions, no away fans, no French TV contract, extra travel cost/disruption, reduced finals crowds, £2m pa central funding lost to the British game etc.

I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Catalans get stabbed in the back in a year's time if SL chooses a 10 team comp for 2022.

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21 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Fairly remarkable that Wakefield now care about club creditors getting what they are owed. A real change.

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

If you're going to hold all SL clubs to minimum standards, you will have a SL of 5-6 clubs and licencing is/was a worthless process IF you are strictly applying those standards to all clubs.

Being in Toronto, subject to massive differences in geography, weather, accessibility etc, course they will be treated differently. They have to be. Their case is an extraordinary one.

Without doubt there are 6 clubs that would tick all the boxes by any measure. There are probably a couple more lacking in some areas but not others. However who says licensing and minimum standards only has to apply to existing SL clubs? There was talk about Newcastle looking at taking over Toronto. There is Toulouse in the Championship. Heck there is even Toronto itself if a SL was being done properly with equal funding and say. If SL was actually serious about implementing a proper SL competition with licensing and clubs buying their way in to show they have the funds we don't know what investors may be interested. 

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57 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

That’s what a I can’t figure out either.

Why did 3 of SL’s best run clubs vote for them?  I can understand why those clubs finding it tough financially would vote against TWP and take their additional 1/12 th of the pot but what did Saints, Leeds and Catalans and the RFL see that others either didn’t or refused to see.  Or was it that the other 8 clubs plus SL saw something clearly wrong but the RFL, Saints, Leeds or Catalans didn’t.

It’s a shame that the truth will probably never come out.

I think we can knock that question down to 2 clubs actually.

Everyone in the room would have had a fairly good idea of what was going to happen, so on that basis:

Catalans nailed on to vote for Toronto because it's the club closest to them in situation and they need to keep the flame alive.

RFL know it's going to be defeated so 'doing the right thing' costs nothing and they get to look like the good guys  -vote for it.

Saints and Leeds? I reckon somewhere between Catalans and RFL - but of the four votes in favour those are the two where I think it's not obvious.

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Again, I'm not a marketing gadgy.... I don't know the first thing about procurement of sponsorship.  But recent history tells us all sports, even the successful ones are facing a downturn in sponsorship.

There has never been a huge queue to sponsor our sport.

Pizza and Eddie Stobbart.....hardly shattering. I have no info that under the current climate that this can/will be reversed

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1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Being in Toronto, subject to massive differences in geography, weather, accessibility etc, course they will be treated differently. They have to be. Their case is an extraordinary one.

While I agree with your general point, it's a little ironic that a big part of Wakefield's reasoning is because they didn't want to treat them as an extraordinary case in regards to insolvency rules and points deductions (although if memory serves I'm not sure they've been applied consistently in the past anyway but could be wrong).

Of course nothing to do with the fact that a large points deduction would effectively guarantee Wakefield's SL status for 2022. Obviously I'm not cynical enough to suggest that...

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1 minute ago, Moove said:

While I agree with your general point, it's a little ironic that a big part of Wakefield's reasoning is because they didn't want to treat them as an extraordinary case in regards to insolvency rules and points deductions (although if memory serves I'm not sure they've been applied consistently in the past anyway but could be wrong).

Of course nothing to do with the fact that a large points deduction would effectively guarantee Wakefield's SL status for 2022. Obviously I'm not cynical enough to suggest that...

Obviously!🤣

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