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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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18 minutes ago, dkw said:

Do you think its a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation that cutting the 12th clubs money is fine because they were able to furlough players.

So that's what's bothering you, I didn't say which side I'm on?

Well, the SL clubs are all self-serving and wouldn't ask for water if they were thirsty! Does that help?😍

Edited by Oxford
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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Good interview. Clearly Hunter is frustrated by the vote but you also get the feeling he understands it given how much David Argyle jerked people around. 

I agree that is a really good interview.  I thought that the vote was about Carlo LiVolsi’s bid though and not Dvid Argyle.

He also says that some of the voting clubs were intimidated by the potential size of a successful Toronto Wolfpack , that some of the documents supplied had not been read by the people that were making the decisions, that that Carlo LiVolsi did have the necessary funds long term and that professional rugby league in Toronto is now dead.

One fact I found particularly interesting which I was not aware off before was that the hard-core season seat holders in Toronto  ( who comprised nearly 2500 people according to Bob Hunter ) were made up of existing rugby league fans from the UK, Australia and New Zealand. ( On top of that were the 5000 new Canadian fans. ) That suggests to me that this club had a good chance of success as a long-term project. It also probably put them in a stronger position in terms of fan base than some of the clubs that are likely to take their place next season. 
 

I was at the match where the Wolfpack played Halifax at the London  Skolars ground on 28th April 2018. I accept that Halifax supplied a decent turnout of away fans but nevertheless the total crowd was bigger than some matches that I have seen between two northern clubs with one playing at home. We played Dewsbury the same day earlier in the afternoon and the crowd was smaller at Trailfinders according to my memory.

I can’t help thinking that this is an opportunity that may never be repeated. So do we have to accept now that real prospects of expansion in the northern hemisphere are now dead?

Edited by westlondonfan
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55 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

I agree that is a really good interview.  I thought that the vote was about Carlo LiVolsi’s bid though and not Dvid Argyle.

He also says that some of the voting clubs were intimidated by the potential size of a successful Toronto Wolfpack , that some of the documents supplied had not been read by the people that were making the decisions, that that Carlo LiVolsi did have the necessary funds long term and that professional rugby league in Toronto is now dead.

One fact I found particularly interesting which I was not aware off before was that the hard-core season seat holders in Toronto  ( who comprised nearly 2500 people according to Bob Hunter ) were made up of existing rugby league fans from the UK, Australia and New Zealand. ( On top of that were the 5000 new Canadian fans. ) That suggests to me that this club had a good chance of success as a long-term project. It also probably put them in a stronger position in terms of fan base than some of the clubs that are likely to take their place next season. 
 

I was at the match where the Wolfpack played Halifax at the London  Skolars ground on 28th April 2018. I accept that Halifax supplied a decent turnout of away fans but nevertheless the total crowd was bigger than some matches that I have seen between two northern clubs with one playing at home. We played Dewsbury the same day earlier in the afternoon and the crowd was smaller at Trailfinders according to my memory.

I can’t help thinking that this is an opportunity that may never be repeated. So do we have to accept now that real prospects of expansion in the northern hemisphere are now dead?

I was at that game too and it was mostly Halifax fans. We loved it when a very possibly 'tired and emotional' woman kept changing the little village cricket style scoreboard to show Fax leading!

It was LiVolsi's bid but he wouldn't give proof of funds and he gave the presentation from his car. Imagine how that would come across. Given what happened with Arygle, you can understand the vote.   

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7 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I was at that game too and it was mostly Halifax fans. We loved it when a very possibly 'tired and emotional' woman kept changing the little village cricket style scoreboard to show Fax leading!

It was LiVolsi's bid but he wouldn't give proof of funds and he gave the presentation from his car. Imagine how that would come across. Given what happened with Arygle, you can understand the vote.   

I was also at that match and didn’t think it was mostly Halifax fans. Lots of Canadian expats and neutrals. Seemed like a third of each. 

Not surprised some SL cubs felt threatened. I’ve been saying that would be case for a while. 
 

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LiVoLsis bid to stardom might have worked out better for him and all involved,If he had backed his product by paying the players before the result of anything,And had the gonnads to start his quest in championship and build to his top table fame. Is the product any good?

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2 hours ago, westlondonfan said:

I agree that is a really good interview.  I thought that the vote was about Carlo LiVolsi’s bid though and not Dvid Argyle.

He also says that some of the voting clubs were intimidated by the potential size of a successful Toronto Wolfpack , that some of the documents supplied had not been read by the people that were making the decisions, that that Carlo LiVolsi did have the necessary funds long term and that professional rugby league in Toronto is now dead.

One fact I found particularly interesting which I was not aware off before was that the hard-core season seat holders in Toronto  ( who comprised nearly 2500 people according to Bob Hunter ) were made up of existing rugby league fans from the UK, Australia and New Zealand. ( On top of that were the 5000 new Canadian fans. ) That suggests to me that this club had a good chance of success as a long-term project. It also probably put them in a stronger position in terms of fan base than some of the clubs that are likely to take their place next season. 
 

I was at the match where the Wolfpack played Halifax at the London  Skolars ground on 28th April 2018. I accept that Halifax supplied a decent turnout of away fans but nevertheless the total crowd was bigger than some matches that I have seen between two northern clubs with one playing at home. We played Dewsbury the same day earlier in the afternoon and the crowd was smaller at Trailfinders according to my memory.

I can’t help thinking that this is an opportunity that may never be repeated. So do we have to accept now that real prospects of expansion in the northern hemisphere are now dead?

From you keyboard to God's ears, it'll have to be Him because SL have adopted Man - selective hearing aids and an Expansion Early Warning System.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, silverback said:

LiVoLsis bid to stardom might have worked out better for him and all involved,If he had backed his product by paying the players before the result of anything,And had the gonnads to start his quest in championship and build to his top table fame. Is the product any good?

No person in their right mind would agree to that.

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1 hour ago, silverback said:

LiVoLsis bid to stardom might have worked out better for him and all involved,If he had backed his product by paying the players before the result of anything,And had the gonnads to start his quest in championship and build to his top table fame. Is the product any good?

Its not even worth the time explaining why that is nonsense.

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14 minutes ago, Damien said:

No person in their right mind would agree to that.

so,was it better to try blackmail rfl to get in SL. if your company or product is good you back it up. would a been a gesture folks like yerself would have dribbled at if he had paid players before taking over, or was it just more bullfodder from overseas,?

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not even worth the time explaining why that is nonsense.

NO,the nonsense was he put in front of a panel to try grab a stake in SL. empty pocket syndrome again. rate his efforts then out a ten to even have tried to gain a spot. 2/10.

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Just now, silverback said:

so,was it better to try blackmail rfl to get in SL. if your company or product is good you back it up. would a been a gesture folks like yerself would have dribbled at if he had paid players before taking over, or was it just more bullfodder from overseas,?

Sorry that barely makes any sense. There was no blackmail, they had conditions and Super League said no. That is not blackmail.

Good gestures work both ways and give confidence and assurance to both sides. The noises coming from Super League weren't exactly positive so I can see why someone wouldn't want to reciprocate. Lets just say he did what you say and spent millions paying off debts to then be told exactly the same and they weren't in. He has no interest in the Championship and after being told no by Super League what would be the point anyway. Even if they won it they know they aren't wanted and would be in the same boat.

Again no one in their right mind would agree to what you say and plenty of RL owners have taken over without paying creditors, see Koukash and Salford for example. Its hardly novel for new RL clubs to be set up in place of old ones.

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1 minute ago, Damien said:

Sorry that barely makes any sense. There was no blackmail, they had conditions and Super League said no. That is not blackmail.

Good gestures work both ways and give confidence and assurance to both sides. The noises coming from Super League weren't exactly positive so I can see why someone wouldn't want to reciprocate. Lets just say he did what you say and spent millions paying off debts to then be told exactly the same and they weren't in. He has no interest in the Championship and after being told no by Super League what would be the point anyway. Even if they won it they know they aren't wanted and would be in the same boat.

Again no one in their right mind would agree to what you say and plenty of RL owners have taken over without paying creditors, see Koukash and Salford for example. Its hardly novel for new RL clubs to be set up in place of old ones.

 rightyho,dident know it were millions, but from what i did read he seemed to want a lot without stumping up anything himself to get the ball rolling.

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16 minutes ago, silverback said:

Am still waiting for the "one of many" wanting to buy a stake in TWP.?

At this moment in time its not very appealing when the whole raison d'etre was for the club to be a big club in Super League. If Super League doesn't want them then there is literally nothing to sell to investors.

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7 hours ago, silverback said:

so,was it better to try blackmail rfl to get in SL. if your company or product is good you back it up. would a been a gesture folks like yerself would have dribbled at if he had paid players before taking over, or was it just more bullfodder from overseas,?

Fantasists mate.

This chancer didn't have the resources or the class to provide a gesture of quality and intent. 

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On 06/11/2020 at 12:34, Yosser said:

And now there is a petition. 

Petitions have never been RL's strength as they all fall out about the wording. With the exception of "The Petition" and the subsequent book .

Although  this one mentions Toronto (and so the fall out begins) it's central message is to object to the power  being in the hands of the clubs and their consequent self interest corrupting their decisions. So hopefully people on either side of the Toronto divide can bring themselves to sign it.

https://www.change.org/p/super-league-make-rugby-league-great-again?recruiter=1161772060&recruited_by_id=c27fb280-1f9c-11eb-af36-6dd4eb480a40&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard

Let's have another push on this and get the numbers up.

SL could do with a shake up and this is your chance.

 

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7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Rather damning of the amateur hour report

That tweet is nonsense, and far more biased than anything we have seen from the report. 

It's like US politics, people are just in their camps and blindly making points that support their conclusion. 

The graph is fine in making the point that TWP were in a market with no RL demand and geographically far. I'm not sure why it is so controversial, it is a visual aid, not particularly scientific and rather basic, but it is perfectly fine. 

Edit to add: It is making the point that expansion investment happens where there is either demand, or geographical creep. This follows neither of those approaches. The better way of challenging this would be to show other examples like TWP - they can't. Instead they try and claim RU and RL is the same in Toronto. 

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

That tweet is nonsense, and far more biased than anything we have seen from the report. 

It's like US politics, people are just in their camps and blindly making points that support their conclusion. 

You may as well have stopped there.

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4 hours ago, Dave T said:

That tweet is nonsense, and far more biased than anything we have seen from the report. 

It's like US politics, people are just in their camps and blindly making points that support their conclusion. 

The graph is fine in making the point that TWP were in a market with no RL demand and geographically far. I'm not sure why it is so controversial, it is a visual aid, not particularly scientific and rather basic, but it is perfectly fine. 

Edit to add: It is making the point that expansion investment happens where there is either demand, or geographical creep. This follows neither of those approaches. The better way of challenging this would be to show other examples like TWP - they can't. Instead they try and claim RU and RL is the same in Toronto. 

It conveniently overlooked the examples of Super Rugby and Pro14 (to say nothing of the Champions League, UEFA League, Heineken Cup and Copa Libertadores) which are also geographically very spread out to make it appear that TWP in RL was a unique one-off situation.  A more honest approach for them would be to admit that they simply can't afford to support an initiative like TWP in the manner needed (i.e. giving them a share of the central distribution) to make it viable.

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9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

It conveniently overlooked the examples of Super Rugby and Pro14 which are also geographically very spread out to make it appear that TWP in RL was a unique one-off situation.  A more honest approach for them would be to admit that they simply can't afford to support an initiative like TWP in the manner needed (i.e. giving them a share of the central distribution) to make it viable.

Feel free to plot those examples on the graph. None will be anywhere near the top right where TWP rightly sit. Pro14 have clubs from areas with substantial RU grounding and/or a natural geographical spread.

As I have said many times, I don't think the conclusion they arrived at was right, but there is nothing wrong in this point.

 

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