The Cornwall RLFC Thread

[OriginalMrC]

Penryn seems fine for what Cornwall need at the moment. Certainly seems plenty big enough as it looks empty even with over 1000 in there

[Hello]

4 hours ago, Jughead said:

A poster above ruled out a rugby union stadiums being used at the elite level of RL because it had been denied by RU. 

Talking of Cornwall and what stadiums will be Super League level is getting ahead of ourselves considering they’ve played about twelve games, are very, very new and haven’t made the outlandish claims of Toronto or Newcastle. 

"Outlandish claims" of Toronto who had crowds considerably bigger than most SL teams whilst in the championship.  And as for Toronto being based on lies, there was this thing called a global pandemic, that occured during the season in which they had to pull the plug - you might have heard about it.

Edited June 29 by Hello

[Jughead]

27 minutes ago, Hello said:

"Outlandish claims" of Toronto who had crowds considerably bigger than most SL teams whilst in the championship.  And as for Toronto being based on lies, there was this thing called a global pandemic, that occured during the season in which they had to pull the plug - you might have heard about it.

I won’t go over old ground on Toronto but the lies and failure to pay people happened long before the pandemic ever took hold. 

[ShropshireBull]

5 hours ago, tiffers said:

Not good news at all for the sporting people of the county as a whole.

Although, Penryn does everything needed of it at the moment. Much further down the line, it has more than enough land to be developed if Cornwall RL and Penryn RU were to come to some kind of arrangement. No doubt would be a great negotiating tool in terms of who owns what, and importantly, who takes the income from it too. Obviously that depends on capital investment etc. Not to mention just how early doors this is with Cornwall RL(!).

None of that would be possible at the S4C. You'd imagine Cornwall RL would be just another one of our clubs being a tenant, renting a stadium with little negotiating power for any other income sources.

Well now it looks like it isnt happening unless there is extra funding no reason to think cornwall RL would invest in anything without rev from games.  

But as long as Cornwall RU (and Plymouth) remain a fiefdom of Exeter Union there is a niche for the league team to carve. 

[ShropshireBull]

4 hours ago, tiffers said:

. So I dont think it is outrageous to be talking about Cornwall's options, if things did grow and develop in the coming few years. Bearing in mind they have been getting around 1k at the mo, it doesn't leave you with too many options, especially considering how friendly (or not) the RU clubs are.

Indeed,  if the aim is not to grow why are they in the comp,  especially when we are going to be reorganising.  

[Hello]

34 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I won’t go over old ground on Toronto but the lies and failure to pay people happened long before the pandemic ever took hold. 

There were one or two deferrals of payment because of admin issues that were ultimately paid anyway in due course.  If there was any true problem then the players wouldn't have signed on the line to play there.  Covid obviously killed most of Toronto's income streams, resulting in the admitedly ultimate non-payment of players in their final season, but without covid they would have had a whole series of home games to come with all attendant revenue.  The fact that pre-covid they actually asked to be able to extend the salary cap to be able to pay even more to their players kills dead in the water this non-payment of bills bs argument that the expansion-haters love to use.  Some people just seem to be firmly against the presentation of opportunity for fresh areas to expand the sport, I can't realate to that mentality at all to be honest.  In the modern world of sport it's surely expand or contract (die).

Edited June 29 by Hello

[tiffers]

2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

According to the articles, it seems like there's a plan B for Truro City of a 6000 capacity stadium largely made up of temporary stands. To be honest, that sounds pretty much like what Salford are looking at at Moor Lane, so it could be good enough for Cornwall RL to keep growing over the next few years, especially if Pirates give up their full-time ambitions. 

Out of interest, where did you see the 6k, temporary stands proposal? That would be very interesting in terms of being acceptable to play in SL.

I'm still of the opinion that staying at Penryn and looking for the appropriate capital investment in expanding the Mem Ground is the best option for Cornwall longer term. I appreciate I say this with zero understanding of the terms in which Cornwall are on at Penryn. However, the power dynamics are very different vs. trying to tie-in with Truro FC/Pirates. Perhaps that might change if Cornwall RL were ever to get into the SL, given the exposure that would bring. Although, the largest part of the funds would come from Durkin and as such, he would call the shots on who gets what.

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, Hello said:

There were one or two deferrals of payment because of admin issues that were ultimately paid anyway in due course.  If there was any true problem then the players wouldn't have signed on the line to play there.  Covid obviously killed most of Toronto's income streams.  The fact that pre-covid they actually asked to be able to extend the salary cap to be able to pay even more to their players kills dead in the water this non-payment of bills bs argument that the expansion-haters love to use.  Some people just seem to be firmly against the presentation of opportunity for fresh areas to expand the sport, I can't realate to that mentality at all to be honest.  In the modern world of sport it's surely expand or contract (die).

I’m not sure them wanting the salary cap extended is in any way linked to them paying bills, something they weren’t doing prior to promotion. Businesses here in the UK and Canada taking legal routes to getting the money owed to them cannot be seen as “bs” either. This sympathy towards them on this matter would not have been the case if they were from somewhere less exotic along the 62. 

[ShropshireBull]

Can we not 

15 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Out of interest, where did you see the 6k, temporary stands proposal? That would be very interesting in terms of being acceptable to play in SL.

I'm still of the opinion that staying at Penryn and looking for the appropriate capital investment in expanding the Mem Ground is the best option for Cornwall longer term. I appreciate I say this with zero understanding of the terms in which Cornwall are on at Penryn. However, the power dynamics are very different vs. trying to tie-in with Truro FC/Pirates. Perhaps that might change if Cornwall RL were ever to get into the SL, given the exposure that would bring. Although, the largest part of the funds would come from Durkin and as such, he would call the shots on who gets what.

Problem is you need stadium before.  I dont know how the reorg shakes out but I imagine they want somewhere in place first.  If they could tidy something up to 5k-6k that would be great long term.  Delighted they got a win and can build for next year with plenty of time. 

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

Toronto made many about how important they were, how they’d do this or that, take games here or there, stamped their feet about salary caps and Newcastle have set themselves a target of achieving Super League status by a certain period, which is pretty wild because the claim come well before they were even a full-time team. 

Thankfully, the approach at Cornwall is very different to Toronto’s and isn’t as ludicrous as Newcastle’s was. 

Ambition is fine but it’s got to be realistic  (Toronto’s was built on lies and Newcastle’s was unrealistic and remains so) and Cornwall are certainly going about things the right way initially, though if they’re serious, assets and bottom up growth is certainly the way to go. 

Bottom up growth will get Cornwall nowhere. Surely we've learned that by now. Eric Perez certainly has. 

[Toby Chopra]

35 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Out of interest, where did you see the 6k, temporary stands proposal? That would be very interesting in terms of being acceptable to play in SL.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59064939

[ShropshireBull]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Bottom up growth will get Cornwall nowhere. Surely we've learned that by now. Eric Perez certainly has. 

I never understand what people mean by that phrase.  Playing locals outside of heartland will lead to getting pumped and crowds dying off.  You need to be competitive and generate rev whilst expecting a loss for year 1 and two.  

 

[ShropshireBull]

Just now, Toby Chopra said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59064939

Worthless for Cornwall RU who need 10k so cant see them putting a penny in. 

[Toby Chopra]

12 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Worthless for Cornwall RU who need 10k so cant see them putting a penny in. 

Cornwall RU own Truro City and it seems they're the ones pushing the plan B to save the football club. I think they are also implicitly accepting they're not getting into the rugby premiership anytime soon, so a temporary solution is OK for now. 

Whether all this turmoil is good or bad for Cornwall RL I'm just not sure. Feels like at this point they'd be better investing in the team and piggybacking on any new stadium as a tenant, than ploughing cash directly into the stadium. 

Hard to know what the right call is until we know what structure IMG will put forward for the next decade. 

[tiffers]

9 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Cornwall RU own Truro City and it seems they're the ones pushing the plan B to save the football club. I think they are also implicitly accepting they're not getting into the rugby premiership anytime soon, so a temporary solution is OK for now. 

Whether all this turmoil is good or bad for Cornwall RL I'm just not sure. Feels like at this point they'd be better investing in the team and piggybacking on any new stadium as a tenant, than ploughing cash directly into the stadium. 

Hard to know what the right call is until we know what structure IMG will put forward for the next decade. 

No doubt the IMG plan is key to understanding what the longer term plans and ambitions will look like for Cornwall.

Providing they are considered for the new structure and included, I would argue that getting further into bed with Penryn RU is the solution. The Mem is a 4k official capacity already, so fine for Championship RL. But it wouldn't take masses more effort (or investment) to get in some temporary seating and extend that to 6k or whatever the SL criteria would be. The power dynamics mean they would surely be in a better position than trying to negotiate a 3-way share with Durkin who holds all the cards. 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, tiffers said:

No doubt the IMG plan is key to understanding what the longer term plans and ambitions will look like for Cornwall.

Providing they are considered for the new structure and included, I would argue that getting further into bed with Penryn RU is the solution. The Mem is a 4k official capacity already, so fine for Championship RL. But it wouldn't take masses more effort (or investment) to get in some temporary seating and extend that to 6k or whatever the SL criteria would be. The power dynamics mean they would surely be in a better position than trying to negotiate a 3-way share with Durkin who holds all the cards. 

I suppose the problem is that we shouldnt be aiming for new clubs that can get less than 6k. The ambition should be more ibs with 5 figure crowds. 

Adding another 5k team in SL won't necessarily mean success even if they are from a new area geographically. 

I suppose if they are going to be in SL with small crowds they need to offer something strong in terms of commercial and player development pathways. 

[ShropshireBull]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the problem is that we shouldnt be aiming for new clubs that can get less than 6k. The ambition should be more ibs with 5 figure crowds. 

Adding another 5k team in SL won't necessarily mean success even if they are from a new area geographically. 

I suppose if they are going to be in SL with small crowds they need to offer something strong in terms of commercial and player development pathways. 

Fair point but we also have to think tv deal.  Yes ideally some euromillons winner comes in to build a New challenger. 

Outside of that 5k clubs but geographically spread around country  (London Cornwall ) combined with internationals gives the sport a much wider reach for tv audiences and commercial income. 

Edited June 30 by ShropshireBull

[tiffers]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the problem is that we shouldnt be aiming for new clubs that can get less than 6k. The ambition should be more ibs with 5 figure crowds. 

Adding another 5k team in SL won't necessarily mean success even if they are from a new area geographically. 

I suppose if they are going to be in SL with small crowds they need to offer something strong in terms of commercial and player development pathways. 

There is more than enough physical space at the Mem to build a larger than 6k stadium, I was just referring to the comparison with the S4C. If you had a limitless budget you could easily build something permanent and significantly bigger in Penryn. Even if you did it on the cheap you could put in temporary stands that would be well in excess of 6k.

See below the physical dimensions you are looking at:
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.1658984,-5.1175387,327m/data=!3m1!1e3

There is ample space.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Fair point but we also have to think tv deal.  Yes ideally some euromillons winner comes in to build a New challenger. 

Outside of that 5k clubs but geographically spread around country  (London Cornwall ) combined with internationals gives the sport a much wider reach for tv audiences and commercial income. 

The principle is sound, but does adding Cornwall make a material change to TV viewers? 

Because there has never been any evidence that London's presence has added viewers at significant levels. 

There is a fair argument that strong clubs wherever they are based can be a success as a TV product. 

There are many arguments in favour of geographical expansion, but we should be aiming for big clubs, not clubs like our weaker ones now. 

[Toby Chopra]

25 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the problem is that we shouldnt be aiming for new clubs that can get less than 6k. The ambition should be more ibs with 5 figure crowds. 

Adding another 5k team in SL won't necessarily mean success even if they are from a new area geographically. 

I suppose if they are going to be in SL with small crowds they need to offer something strong in terms of commercial and player development pathways. 

I assume we're taking about in a licensing situation. For me the question is would it be better to have, say, 5k in Newcastle or York (or Wakefield) but the "potential" to grow, or 6k capped in Cornwall. 

The word "potential" tends to do an awful lot of heavy lifting in rugby league, whereas having the word "Cornwall" linked to Superleague every week would do a lot for perception of us being a national sport. I think it should count for something, at least.

 

[ShropshireBull]

Cornwall currently get 1k at the bottom of League 1 without a home win.  So we definitely have proof of concept. Plus we now know they wont face any professional competition for at least a decade. 

[Toby Chopra]

42 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Cornwall currently get 1k at the bottom of League 1 without a home win.  So we definitely have proof of concept. Plus we now know they wont face any professional competition for at least a decade. 

It's proof that people everywhere can like rugby league. It's not proof, yet, that Cornwall can develop into a financially sustainable team in the longer term.  

[ShropshireBull]

30 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

It's proof that people everywhere can like rugby league. It's not proof, yet, that Cornwall can develop into a financially sustainable team in the longer term.  

Fair point.  Lets say they need a playing budget of 400k to be competitive at championship level ( being miles from heartlands) Thats 600k needed.  So can they get enough in Sponsors, central income and ticket sales to hit that? 

I think it can be viable at Champ but not League 1 however League 1 isnt going to exist. 

Challenge Cup entry next year which if they can get on the telly might boost the profile.  

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Fair point.  Lets say they need a playing budget of 400k to be competitive at championship level ( being miles from heartlands) Thats 600k needed.  So can they get enough in Sponsors, central income and ticket sales to hit that? 

I think it can be viable at Champ but not League 1 however League 1 isnt going to exist. 

Challenge Cup entry next year which if they can get on the telly might boost the profile.  

If you're outside the heartlands you need a full-time squad even to be mid-table in the Championship. Broncos and Newcastle have shown us that just this year. So that's closer to a million for players, stadium hire, non playing staff, offices etc. 

Cornwall have made a great start but the financial reality is harsh and investors will need to make a significant commitment if it's going to work. 

Perez knows the reality, so I'm at least optimistic that he has a plan, unlike the guy at WWR who seems to be hoping that something will turn up to change the clubs fortunes. 

[ShropshireBull]

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

stadium hire

There´s that problem again, if you can´t generate rev or own part of the ground it almost feels like a dead duck from birth. Think London is a bit different to Newcastle, with London being eyewateringly expensive and basically a shut out unless you are rich.

It´ll be interesting to see how they go next year (I´m not expecting much more this season).