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Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)


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34 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But a 2012 comparison (10 years ago) would see the weekly average of 10,100 and 6 clubs with 10k+ averages. Even Huddersfield (7k) and Wakefield (8k) were being competitive with crowds.

Interesting that this is in the middle of licensing when these metrics were part of having a place in the competition as opposed to who could sign the most NRL cast offs to avoid the drop.

There was a sixth club ready to have five figure average attendances but the other clubs decided to kick them out. 

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16 minutes ago, Eddie said:

There was a sixth club ready to have five figure average attendances but the other clubs decided to kick them out. 

And there is a potential for a 7th over the next 5-10 years and the same will happen. We are such a hand to mouth organisation and it shows in everything the game does.

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47 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Have done this in a hurry so errors may have crept in whilst copying

Team S2002 S2012 S2022
Bradford 11542 11150  
Castleford 6698 6710 8476
Catalans   8682 7692
Halifax 4152    
Huddersfield   7028 5199
Hull FC 6928 11433 10710
Hull KR   7546 8134
Leeds 11910 14034 12550
London 3763 2532  
Salford 4199 5666 4464
St Helens 10572 13990 13304
Toulouse     5210
Wakefield 3889 8172 4716
Warrington 6270 10729 8922
Widnes 6310 5769  
Wigan 10300 14423 10816
Average average 7211 9133 8349
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22 minutes ago, Scubby said:

And there is a potential for a 7th over the next 5-10 years and the same will happen. We are such a hand to mouth organisation and it shows in everything the game does.

Who’s the 7th, Catalans? Or the Anglian Vipers? 

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12 hours ago, fevtom said:

Just a quick update on the Super League averages so far.

St Helens 13304
Leeds Rhinos 12550
Wigan Warriors 10816
Hull FC 10710
Warrington Wolves 8922
Castleford Tigers 8476
Hull Kingston Rovers 8134
Catalans Dragons 7692
Toulouse Olympique 5210
Huddersfield Giants 5199
Wakefield Trinity 4716
Salford Red Devils 4464


Huddersfield have a fantastic offer on half season tickets and looks like they’re coming up with ideas to boost the atmosphere too.

I thought that a fresh way of seeing the spread and context of these numbers would be to compare them to the range evident in soccer.

Now whilst it is patently obvious RL is not soccer, but maybe these comparisons might give a new way of looking at the range and consider where its breadth is or isn't appropriate.

Thus Super League -

EPL - St Helens is MUFC, Salford are Crystal Palace.

La Liga - St Helens is Barcelona, Salford are Espanyol

For me at least, that makes sense in the normal variety of the clubs.

Adding the numbers from LoveRL and Wiki, the top of the Championship looks like now-

  • Bradford-3787
  • Widnes-3488
  • Fev- 3461
  • Leigh-2783
  • York-2347

So if you use the previous example, then:

English Football Championship

If St Helens are MUFC, then Bradford are Middlesbrough

Widnes and Fev are akin to Coventry City

Leigh as Birmingham and York as QPR.

Literally the figures match as -

  • St Helens are Blackburn Rovers
  • Leeds are Preston North End
  • Wigan are Peterborough United
  • Salford are Crewe Alexandria
  • Bradford are Burton Albion.

 

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5 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

I thought that a fresh way of seeing the spread and context of these numbers would be to compare them to the range evident in soccer.

Now whilst it is patently obvious RL is not soccer, but maybe these comparisons might give a new way of looking at the range and consider where its breadth is or isn't appropriate.

Thus Super League -

EPL - St Helens is MUFC, Salford are Crystal Palace.

La Liga - St Helens is Barcelona, Salford are Espanyol

For me at least, that makes sense in the normal variety of the clubs.

Adding the numbers from LoveRL and Wiki, the top of the Championship looks like now-

  • Bradford-3787
  • Widnes-3488
  • Fev- 3461
  • Leigh-2783
  • York-2347

So if you use the previous example, then:

English Football Championship

If St Helens are MUFC, then Bradford are Middlesbrough

Widnes and Fev are akin to Coventry City

Leigh as Birmingham and York as QPR.

Literally the figures match as -

  • St Helens are Blackburn Rovers
  • Leeds are Preston North End
  • Wigan are Peterborough United
  • Salford are Crewe Alexandria
  • Bradford are Burton Albion.

 

And if you had a League of Blackburn Rovers, PNE, Peterborough, Crewe and Burton Albion what TV deal would you expect (caveat with it being the highest tier of the sport too as a bonus)?

We're very similar to Scottish football, and get very similar commercial interest. The main difference being their concentration in the Old Firm is far greater than any one of our clubs, but our smaller clubs are often a bit bigger than theirs to compensate 

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5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

And if you had a League of Blackburn Rovers, PNE, Peterborough, Crewe and Burton Albion what TV deal would you expect ...

I'd expect it to be £119m over five years.

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Indeed Tommy.

The ratio for St Helens and Salford (1st and 12th most supportive clubs) is very roughly 3:1.

(I have this contention that we have "Super" Heartlands like Wigan/St Helens/Wakefield MBC area/city of Hull et al and "Light" Heartlands like Salford/Huddersfield et al)

I wonder if there is a sporting competition where this ratio exists between the first and twelfth? I will see. Better than working eh?!

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33 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Have done this in a hurry so errors may have crept in whilst copying

Team S2002 S2012 S2022
Bradford 11542 11150  
Castleford 6698 6710 8476
Catalans   8682 7692
Halifax 4152    
Huddersfield   7028 5199
Hull FC 6928 11433 10710
Hull KR   7546 8134
Leeds 11910 14034 12550
London 3763 2532  
Salford 4199 5666 4464
St Helens 10572 13990 13304
Toulouse     5210
Wakefield 3889 8172 4716
Warrington 6270 10729 8922
Widnes 6310 5769  
Wigan 10300 14423 10816
Average average 7211 9133 8349

Should add for the Saints 2012 figure, this was a one off season. It was the first year in our new stadium, we sold over 10,000 season tickets and saw a big boost in crowd figures before falling back to an 11K norm from 2013 onwards.

I expect our 2022 average to drop too as we have already played our 'big' home matches and have a lot of the traditionally lesser attended fixtures to go.

(Should add, not a criticism of the figures put together, just adding context.)

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1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

Should add for the Saints 2012 figure, this was a one off season. It was the first year in our new stadium, we sold over 10,000 season tickets and saw a big boost in crowd figures before falling back to an 11K norm from 2013 onwards.

I expect our 2022 average to drop too as we have already played our 'big' home matches and have a lot of the traditionally lesser attended fixtures to go.

(Should add, not a criticism of the figures put together, just adding context.)

Yeah not a criticism @gingerjon, but could you do it with the full 2019 figures please 😉

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1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

Should add for the Saints 2012 figure, this was a one off season. It was the first year in our new stadium, we sold over 10,000 season tickets and saw a big boost in crowd figures before falling back to an 11K norm from 2013 onwards.

I expect our 2022 average to drop too as we have already played our 'big' home matches and have a lot of the traditionally lesser attended fixtures to go.

(Should add, not a criticism of the figures put together, just adding context.)

Feel free to criticise the figures (or at least, if they need correcting they can be corrected) as it is all other people's work, I'm just sticking them together to make it easier for comparison.

Thanks for the context.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

Yeah not a criticism @gingerjon, but could you do it with the full 2019 figures please 😉

You can have the second half of 2020 figures and think yourself lucky.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Less than what we currently get then!

Interesting, isn't it?

Leagues 1 and 2 in soccer are completely stuffed by both the funding set up and the mechanics of the TV deal. It's a quirk that the fifth tier gets more live coverage and visibility than the two divisions above it.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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43 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Have done this in a hurry so errors may have crept in whilst copying

Team S2002 S2012 S2022
Bradford 11542 11150  
Castleford 6698 6710 8476
Catalans   8682 7692
Halifax 4152    
Huddersfield   7028 5199
Hull FC 6928 11433 10710
Hull KR   7546 8134
Leeds 11910 14034 12550
London 3763 2532  
Salford 4199 5666 4464
St Helens 10572 13990 13304
Toulouse     5210
Wakefield 3889 8172 4716
Warrington 6270 10729 8922
Widnes 6310 5769  
Wigan 10300 14423 10816
Average average 7211 9133 8349

Using Wakefield's figures is somewhat disingenuous as this was a period where attendance figures were important to licensing.

Probably half of that 8k weren't actually paying, and the club almost went bust again shortly after as the then owner was losing 600k per year.

Steady growth has taken place from 3.9k to 4.7k. With no significant external finance and no on-field success, it is understandable even if unsatisfactory. 

The important metric is income not attendance figures.

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Interesting, isn't it?

Leagues 1 and 2 in soccer are completely stuffed by both the funding set up and the mechanics of the TV deal. It's a quirk that the fifth tier gets more live coverage and visibility than the two divisions above it.

Yeah its a bit of a mish mash really - seems very much to be a Championship tv deal with League 1 and 2 thrown in. Its also clouded by the Premier League trickle down funding to the Championship through direct and parachute payments. Do you know the value of the Vanarama National League deal?

Scottish Premiership football has always struck me as a similar competition too.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Have done this in a hurry so errors may have crept in whilst copying

Team S2002 S2012 S2022
Bradford 11542 11150  
Castleford 6698 6710 8476
Catalans   8682 7692
Halifax 4152    
Huddersfield   7028 5199
Hull FC 6928 11433 10710
Hull KR   7546 8134
Leeds 11910 14034 12550
London 3763 2532  
Salford 4199 5666 4464
St Helens 10572 13990 13304
Toulouse     5210
Wakefield 3889 8172 4716
Warrington 6270 10729 8922
Widnes 6310 5769  
Wigan 10300 14423 10816
Average average 7211 9133 8349

With Bulls Fax and Broncos we've lost 13000 from the sport in the UK. Probably 15k with Widnes. Wakey and Pies grim to. We need another big UK club and build up Toulouse to stabalise here. 

Looks like I wasnt making it up about giants being smaller. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Using Wakefield's figures is somewhat disingenuous as this was a period where attendance figures were important to licensing.

Probably half of that 8k weren't actually paying, and the club almost went bust again shortly after as the then owner was losing 600k per year.

Steady growth has taken place from 3.9k to 4.7k. With no significant external finance and no on-field success, it is understandable even if unsatisfactory. 

The important metric is income not attendance figures.

Yes and no.  More success should help them grow again but if a heartland club is averaging sub 5k having been in SL for yonks then questions to be asked about value. 

I hope the redev is a gamechanger for them. 

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1 hour ago, Eddie said:

There was a sixth club ready to have five figure average attendances but the other clubs decided to kick them out. 

Pandemic 

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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Pandemic 

What about the pandemic made the SL clubs vote TWP out? They were paying to stay and play all their home games in England. 

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10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah its a bit of a mish mash really - seems very much to be a Championship tv deal with League 1 and 2 thrown in. Its also clouded by the Premier League trickle down funding to the Championship through direct and parachute payments. Do you know the value of the Vanarama National League deal?

Scottish Premiership football has always struck me as a similar competition too.

No idea of the total value but remembered this from a couple of years ago which I suspect is still valid as part of it: "Home teams receive £6,000 per televised match while away teams get £2,000." (Hartlepool Mail report on the coverage of "Pools'" games).

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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24 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Using Wakefield's figures is somewhat disingenuous as this was a period where attendance figures were important to licensing.

Probably half of that 8k weren't actually paying, and the club almost went bust again shortly after as the then owner was losing 600k per year.

Steady growth has taken place from 3.9k to 4.7k. With no significant external finance and no on-field success, it is understandable even if unsatisfactory. 

The important metric is income not attendance figures.

I don't buy into that - it is exaggeration, my whole family lives in Wakefield. Yes there were offers but that is way off the mark.

Those 4k who are no longer attending were also buying merchandise, food and drink at the stadium, programmes and engaging in social media. Now the club is building new facilities, I'm sure it would give anything to tap into that lost database of attendees.

Scrimping is a race to the bottom.

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Just now, Eddie said:

What about the pandemic made the SL clubs vote TWP out? They were paying to stay and play all their home games in England. 

The pandemic crippled Mr Argyles ' cash ' , because they were not a UK club they weren't entitled ( correctly ) to furlough payments , so financially they were stuffed 

Some short memories on here 

Now at the time I suggested they be put in a deep freeze situation until it was over , no matter how long that would have taken , but the powers needed an equal number of teams to fulfill their obligations to SKY , hence why Leigh became the sacrificial lambs 

The Toronto that was refused SL in 2021 was not the Toronto that won promotion in 2019 , the potential new owner provided no evidence he could realistically finance them to complete the season 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I don't buy into that - it is exaggeration, my whole family lives in Wakefield. Yes there were offers but that is way off the mark.

Those 4k who are no longer attending were also buying merchandise, food and drink at the stadium, programmes and engaging in social media. Now the club is building new facilities, I'm sure it would give anything to tap into that lost database of attendees.

Scrimping is a race to the bottom.

I don't have access to actual income figures, as I suspect you don't either, but losing 600k per year and almost entering administration for a second time in 3 years suggests it was unsustainable. 

On top of huge discounts for season tickets, there were many freebies given out. It was a gamble for instant success which didn't pay off.

Merchandising was also particularly poor at that time, lots of cheap tat, not least the Macron replica shirts.

"Scrimping" is only a race to the bottom if the business is shrinking rather than growing, however slowly. The alternative of spending money you don't have without an "investor" is a huge gamble with the future of the club (see Bradford).

Trinity have certainly been "getting away with it" for over 20 years now, but the growth of other clubs means that time is running out.

Hopefully, the new development will increase income and therefore competitiveness. Otherwise, the end is nigh.

Finishing in the top 10 for the last 6 years has been against the odds for a club with the lowest cap spend, but investment in other aspects of the club (youth, community, women, minority groups) has strengthened the infrastructure.

Diverting cash to the first team only (Salford?) and spending above income was, and is, a big short-term gamble. It is yet to be decided whether this longer-term approach will succeed, but the alternative did and would have failed.

Sub 5k attendances are unsustainable in the long term, but slow growth whilst maintaining SL status was really the only option, despite the poor optics.

P.S. I don't think the database was lost, that was from 2 regimes ago

 

Edited by Wholly Trinity
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