IMG Grading Unveiled

[RP London]

12 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

The way it's calculated has not been given to clubs. It's planned to be provided later in the summer.

Was it not in the extra information that they sent out to clubs with all this information in it as they said was happening?

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

So no Promotion aspect didn't stop you going?

Yes Chris I went, and all through the closed shop period when in the latter part we lost 5 games in 3 seasons, I will not be going back to that and I feel totally sorry for any ambitious club that has to do so.

One other point on that, if I was a financial backer of a Championship club who had ambition but was stifled I would find something else to spend my hard earned on.

[RP London]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes Chris I went, and all through the closed shop period when in the latter part we lost 5 games in 3 seasons, I will not be going back to that and I feel totally sorry for any ambitious club that has to do so.

One other point on that, if I was a financial backer of a Championship club who had ambition but was stifled I would find something else to spend my hard earned on.

Why stifled? If you're an investor you now know that if you invest in xyz you get a return. At the moment you can invest without knowledge that that investment will get you anymore than standing still.. 

 

[Chrispmartha]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

.

One other point on that, if I was a financial backer of a Championship club who had ambition but was stifled I would find something else to spend my hard earned on.

They’re not stifled, investors do not like gambling, and gambling on hoping you can but a team to get you in SL is just that a gamble.

you can rail against it all you like but clearly the people that are putting money into clubs disagree with you hence the overwhelming vote to go with the proposal.

[TheReaper]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

But is your ' catchment between Dale , Giants and Salford/Swinton ? , Or a five mile radius of wherever you are now playing ? , Where is Newcastle's catchment ? , London's ? 

Probably by using data from studies about how far / how often fans attend sports and various other events and how they're affected by various factors. 

Anybody who think the professional sports marketing people don't realize that sport fandom doesn't follow the town borders, are either willfully ignorant or ###### stupid.

Same goes for thinking they're going to share with what I assume are proprietary models and analysis willy-nilly before they're good and ready. 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by TheReaper

[bobbruce]

On 20/04/2023 at 12:14, Harry Stottle said:

Who gets the chance to play in it?

Apart from the invitationals, it is made up of those who have been better than their contemporaries in an elimination process.

Almost exactly how SL will work. 

[redjonn]

6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Probably by using data from studies about how far / how often fans attend sports and various other events and how they're affected by various factors. 

Anybody who think the professional sports marketing people don't realize that sport fandom doesn't follow the town borders, are either willfully ignorant or ###### stupid.

Same goes for thinking they're going to share with what I assume are proprietary models and analysis willy-nilly before they're good and ready. 

 

well yes you would expect any average marketing department to know that.  Never-the-less in trying to consider an objective measurement if you have say x3 clubs in close proxity that doesn't really matter where current fans come from. For example, surely it would not be wise in a cash strapped sport for all x3 clubs to start targeting the same geographical locations.  Of course the wider RL as in RFL would look to broader boundaries to promote the sport but clubs focus would be narrower within the context of our sport.

So the question of catchments area's for objective measurement is simpler.

It also depends upon the strategic intent. To take a nonsensical example if the strategic intent was to be a European wide SL then you would take a different catchment approach in anticipation of interest elsewhere. or if its to strengthen existing heartlands you would look to narrower boundaries and say for example measure Leigh within the context of Leigh town only.  Nowt to do with any facts that many may travel from outside Leigh.

So as not to have anybody with any chips on a shoulder I just used Leigh as an example of a successful club within  a narrow boundary as having to been to Leigh last night so they were upper mind.

Edited April 22, 2023 by redjonn

[gingerjon]

To repeat the point made earlier: why are some ignoring the changes made that turned catchment into community?

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

To repeat the point made earlier: why are some ignoring the changes made that turned catchment into community?

And the difference is ?

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

And the difference is ?

Substantial.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Substantial.

In what way ? 

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In what way ? 

In ways that are pretty obvious to anyone who has read them.

And I would expect anyone genuinely interested in rugby league to have read them.

[Cerulean]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

In ways that are pretty obvious to anyone who has read them.

And I would expect anyone genuinely interested in rugby league to have read them.

My seven year old granddaughter is genuinely and deeply interested in the sport, playing and watching. She’s read the documents and regards them as a spurious presentation, full of meaningless parameters, which will be discarded within three years. But she’s not passing full judgement until she’s seen the detailed analysis of the truly wise ones amongst us on this forum.

[gingerjon]

44 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

My seven year old granddaughter is genuinely and deeply interested in the sport, playing and watching. She’s read the documents and regards them as a spurious presentation, full of meaningless parameters, which will be discarded within three years. But she’s not passing full judgement until she’s seen the detailed analysis of the truly wise ones amongst us on this forum.

Your seven year old granddaughter is more wise and sensible than many owners of rugby league clubs.

[redjonn]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

In ways that are pretty obvious to anyone who has read them.

And I would expect anyone genuinely interested in rugby league to have read them.

You mean as clear as:

The re-named 'Community' pillar will award points to clubs based on the positive impact they have in the communities in which the sport is based and played. It will combine each club's fanbase potential with a rating for their Foundation - the charitable bodies linked to clubs which drive much of their community and participation activity.

It still ponders the question as to how you measure fanbase potential, that is the demographic and geographical numbers.

I guess its as subjective as possible to "fudge" as needed to adjust to suit whatever output wanted.

Unless their are some indicative definitions not published.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, redjonn said:

You mean as clear as:

The re-named 'Community' pillar will award points to clubs based on the positive impact they have in the communities in which the sport is based and played. It will combine each club's fanbase potential with a rating for their Foundation - the charitable bodies linked to clubs which drive much of their community and participation activity.

It still ponders the question as to how you measure fanbase potential, that is the demographic and geographical numbers.

I guess its as subjective as possible to "fudge" as needed to adjust to suit whatever output wanted.

Unless their are some indicative definitions not published.

I think @del capo covered it earlier in the thread.

And apologies if it wasn't him but I think it was.

[the man]

Interview with Radio Cumbria if you're interested

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fhzv6j

There seems to be a general feeling on this thread that the clubs have received more information than is in the public domain. The simple fact is the clubs haven't. Although each category has points we have yet to see how that is broken down and we don't know at this stage how we will pick up a single point. Can a Championship club even achieve 15pts to get an A-grade to keep SL growing after it has reached 12 A-teams?

The clubs were voting on a principal rather than a detailed proposal.

 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

56 minutes ago, the man said:

Interview with Radio Cumbria if you're interested

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fhzv6j

There seems to be a general feeling on this thread that the clubs have received more information than is in the public domain. The simple fact is the clubs haven't. Although each category has points we have yet to see how that is broken down and we don't know at this stage how we will pick up a single point. Can a Championship club even achieve 15pts to get an A-grade to keep SL growing after it has reached 12 A-teams?

The clubs were voting on a principal rather than a detailed proposal.

 

Looking at the IMG vote thread there are 53 members of this forum who can tell you exactly what each category means and how it will be scored.....

[Roughyed Rats]

On 21/04/2023 at 17:17, RP London said:

Was it not in the extra information that they sent out to clubs with all this information in it as they said was happening?

Nope. They sent a couple of 'case studies' but again these didn't include the scoring criteria. Clubs had to vote on 'the principle' not knowing exactly what the scoring criteria would be. 

[glossop saint]

1 hour ago, the man said:

Interview with Radio Cumbria if you're interested

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fhzv6j

There seems to be a general feeling on this thread that the clubs have received more information than is in the public domain. The simple fact is the clubs haven't. Although each category has points we have yet to see how that is broken down and we don't know at this stage how we will pick up a single point. Can a Championship club even achieve 15pts to get an A-grade to keep SL growing after it has reached 12 A-teams?

The clubs were voting on a principal rather than a detailed proposal.

 

Voting based on principle rather than detailed proposal. Is that a bad thing?  Having the detail could potentially have led to only those who would be in the top 12 to vote for the proposal.

I'm not surprised that the clubs know no more than us on here. If they did know more I have no doubt it would have been leaked and we would know it as well.

Personally I would like to know more, specifically any waiting to none SL clubs, but 'in principle' I would be voting it through.

I'm not sure anyone has said that they know exactly how it would work.

[steve oates]

On 21/04/2023 at 13:55, glossop saint said:

Yes. A team in 8th beating a team top of the table. Prime example of a 2 horse race. Come on.

So Saints one game less played and a slow start due to the great effort to beat the Aussies means that they aren't set to slug it out with Wigan, with nobody else near.

Last decade has been monopolised by Saints and Wigan.  So you come on explain why it won't be same old same old....

[glossop saint]

2 minutes ago, steve oates said:

So Saints one game less played and a slow start due to the great effort to beat the Aussies means that they aren't set to slug it out with Wigan, with nobody else near.

Last decade has been monopolised by Saints and Wigan.  So you come on explain why it won't be same old same old....

1 Saints v Wigan final in the last 8 years. I can't remember the last Saint Wigan CC Final.

I would love a bit more variety of winners. We aren't getting enough at the moment. How do we change that? Not by changing P and R to 2+ clubs and making more clubs look over their shoulder instead of looking forward. What change do you advocate to change the status quo? This is IMG (a professional sports consultancy firm) plan to do that (maybe not directly but pretty certain that they will want that, why wouldn't they).

[steve oates]

11 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

1 Saints v Wigan final in the last 8 years. I can't remember the last Saint Wigan CC Final.

I would love a bit more variety of winners. We aren't getting enough at the moment. How do we change that? Not by changing P and R to 2+ clubs and making more clubs look over their shoulder instead of looking forward. What change do you advocate to change the status quo? This is IMG (a professional sports consultancy firm) plan to do that (maybe not directly but pretty certain that they will want that, why wouldn't they).

The Wigan/Saints Monopoly as you know is of the all year round League games and resultant Grand final. You just switched it to a knock out mid season tournament to avoid admitting the point. So same old same old for years gone and years to go, so comparison with Celtic and Rangers is well founded. 

What change do I advocate? I don't have the exact facts but I am not sure that the limit on clubs spending on players is any longer a principle i.e. all clubs are on an equal spending limit. Seem to remember the Marque player rule blew all that away. I don't run the sport - it's run for us? Or for the fans & directors of the most richest & successful clubs maybe?

As for IMG can't see them going back to a pure even salary cap either, that won't please the wealthy owners. I do know they are charged with getting SKY to dish up more on behalf of Chairmen who can't do that themselves, and probably don't believe IMG can - hence the Chairmen won't pay them extra fees unless they get extra money....  

Then we have the Tournament itself.  IMG are set to make changes to the League, by getting rid of Loop fixtures and Magic Weekend. That's a lot of revenue to throw away, but I aren't a privy to the sums and whether this somehow would mean "Less is more" as the saying goes

Over to you my good man....

[glossop saint]

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

The Wigan/Saints Monopoly as you know is of the all year round League games and resultant Grand final. You just switched it to a knock out mid season tournament to avoid admitting the point. So same old same old for years gone and years to go, so comparison with Celtic and Rangers is well founded. 

What change do I advocate? I don't have the exact facts but I am not sure that the limit on clubs spending on players is any longer a principle i.e. all clubs are on an equal spending limit. Seem to remember the Marque player rule blew all that away. I don't run the sport - it's run for us? Or for the fans & directors of the most richest & successful clubs maybe?

As for IMG can't see them going back to a pure even salary cap either, that won't please the wealthy owners. I do know they are charged with getting SKY to dish up more on behalf of Chairmen who can't do that themselves, and probably don't believe IMG can - hence the Chairmen won't pay them extra fees unless they get extra money....  

Then we have the Tournament itself.  IMG are set to make changes to the League, by getting rid of Loop fixtures and Magic Weekend. That's a lot of revenue to throw away, but I aren't a privy to the sums and whether this somehow would mean "Less is more" as the saying goes

Over to you my good man....

I've not changed anything. 1 Saints Wigan final in last 8 years. That is the 'resultant grand final'. I added the Challenge Cup as a valid addition as another major trophy. I can add in the League leaders shield as well if you like? And also I have accepted I want more variety. Though your example of 8th beating 1st is a worse example of a 2 horse race than any of mine.

As for the rest of the post I don't see any suggestions to change this duopoly. I understand it is not your responsibility but surely you can't pan the current system and the proposed alteration and not expect to be asked how you would fix it.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

A message from the other side about the reality of ditching promotion and relegation

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12005357/CHRIS-FOY-No-jeopardy-no-clue-English-club-rugby-fading-eyes.html

Face facts - The last time round under Franchising - Salford, London Broncos and Bradford Bulls atrophied. with Salfords surviving through Dr Koukash's money and the other two clubs never really recovering.