Why don’t we talk more about statistics?

[Gerrumonside ref]

Other sports make quite a lot of use of statistics both in coaching, but also media analysis/general discussion.

I don’t see a lot of it though when we as fans discuss rugby league?

No power rankings, best defence, best attack or even individual stats etc?

What’s the reason for this do you think?

Are the RL media or fans missing a trick or is it the nature of the sport?

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[MattSantos]

3 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

 

Are the RL media/us missing a trick or is it the nature of the sport?

This. The UK Rugby League media are* pathetic. Some absolutely wonderful statistical analysis on twitter coming out of Australia. I don't recall handles etc, but a quick search would do.

 

*Are / Is?

Edited June 14, 2023 by MattSantos

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

This. The UK Rugby League media are* pathetic. Some absolutely wonderful statistical analysis on twitter coming out of Australia. I don't recall handles etc, but a quick search would do.

 

*Are / Is?

Thanks I’ll check that out.

I just think if the information exists it would be good to see it to prove/disprove/support a few sporting debates.

I find stats definitely increase my own personal enjoyment of other sports so why not rugby league too?

[idrewthehaggis]

You could loosely link the dismissal of using factual stats by RL fans and the higher than average prevalence of pro brexit votes in RL towns, but I won't. 🥹

Maybe it is what English RL people see as more important-application, tackling/ball/positioning skills and physicality than cold stats..

Maybe culturally we don't have that desire like in the USA where articles with all the numbers are even there to read when you having a pee.🥹

Edited June 14, 2023 by idrewthehaggis

[LR23]

Is it because your general rugby league fan in this country has no interest in that sort of thing? Can’t imagine Big Jeff who spends all game shouting ‘forward’ and abuse at the ref really goes for stats.

 

I remember getting into a discussion about the best fullback at the World Cup and the other person was adamant it was Suaalii. When I pointed out that Tedesco and Manu had obliterated him in all key stats (and quoted them) I had multiple replies from people telling me how useless stats were.

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Other sports make quite a lot of use of statistics both in coaching, but also media analysis/general discussion.

I don’t see a lot of it though when we as fans discuss rugby league?

No power rankings, best defence, best attack or even individual stats etc?

What’s the reason for this do you think?

Are the RL media or fans missing a trick or is it the nature of the sport?

Because whenever anything is done it’s normally given to Phil Clarke to explain and he’s then mocked on here and by his colleagues.

[Davo5]

Stats do have an important part to play in the game but they often don’t tell you the full story & shouldn’t be used exclusively when gauging a teams/player’s performance.

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Because whenever anything is done it’s normally given to Phil Clarke to explain and he’s then mocked on here and by his colleagues.

Has he done it well though?

I really don't enjoy the way RL is presented in this country and it's helped turn me away; my apathy is at an all time high. In a saturated world, my time is no longer given and my $ goes to other sports.

[MattSantos]

3 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Stats do have an important part to play in the game but they often don’t tell you the full story & shouldn’t be used exclusively when gauging a teams/player’s performance.

I don't think that's the initial point though.

Stats should be a vehicle for discussion. Does Boots n All still exist?

 

Good old Dunbatron is brilliant at using stats to shape an argument. I have just read that you've fell out, so... why was Luai so ###### in origin 1?

Edited June 14, 2023 by MattSantos

[MattSantos]

15 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Thanks I’ll check that out.

I just think if the information exists it would be good to see it to prove/disprove/support a few sporting debates.

I find stats definitely increase my own personal enjoyment of other sports so why not rugby league too?

I dont have my phone near me, but whilst i remember...

The Rugby League Eye Test

Rugby League Analytics

Andrew Ferguson

Ben Darwin

Marron Observer sends an email with stuff.

[Red Willow]

We do see the metres made, tackles made etc every week. 

The clubs all have access to the data from the trackers and monitor it in game in most cases.

For SL data to be seen we would need  a press that showed any interest other than there was crowd trouble (se recent Cas V Salford) 

[Davo5]

38 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I don't think that's the initial point though.

Stats should be a vehicle for discussion. Does Boots n All still exist?

 

Good old Dunbatron is brilliant at using stats to shape an argument. I have just read that you've fell out, so... why was Luai so ###### in origin 1?

Nah not really.

Who’s this Luai fella ?

[Damien]

I think they aren't discussed more because the presentation of the game is so poor by the broadcasters. Broadcasters simply don't use statistics too much so fans haven't a great deal to go on to even discuss them.

[MattSantos]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think they aren't discussed more because the presentation of the game is so poor by the broadcasters. Broadcasters simply don't use statistics too much so fans haven't a great deal to go on to even discuss them.

Why do you think RL journalists don't use them?

[Tommygilf]

Stats need a fairly big team behind them and analysts to assess them. RL in this country at least doesn't have that at the moment, do OPTA cover us?

[Click]

I remember years ago trying to find out stats for a game as I was very impressed with the performance by I believe it was Sarginson for Salford - I was really intrigued to see his metres and carries but it was impossible to find the stats.

I don't believe OPTA cover us anymore, or if they do it is not actively available. I know the SL website used to occasionally put up stats on tackles, metres made, etc but I think that stopped awhile ago as well. 

I'm not sure the broadcasters can be blamed for them not relying on stats more - it won't be them that gather that data would it? Wouldn't it be the RFL or a third party who then feed it to the broadcasters, etc? I am not sure how this stuff exactly works, but I have always been fascinated with seeing stats of how players performed in games that I've watched and RL in this country has made it next to impossible to find out any information about it.

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Stats need a fairly big team behind them and analysts to assess them. RL in this country at least doesn't have that at the moment, do OPTA cover us?

I believe we do get stats by Opta but there doesn't seem to be any publicly available database unlike football and some of the other sports they cover. The only way to view them is here https://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player-stats, however they can be quite slow to update them at times and it doesn't let you filter for game weeks, individual clubs players etc

 

[Griff]

Takes me about six hours to do ours.

[Jughead]

We definitely should talk about it more. I know it’s not for everyone and people prefer just using their eyes but data is a massive untapped area in Rugby League, especially with broadcasters. I like that sort of thing in football. I use some of it to get a bit geeky and place bets but I know lots of other people like it for many different reasons. 

The much maligned “Margin Meter” was before it’s time, looking back. It was Rugby league’s Expected Goals in many ways but it become very gimmicky and a bit of a joke whereas if it was used now, it probably wouldn’t be looked down upon as much. 

I’ve said it many times but the Super League websites stats area is barely usable and there is little historical data stored on there. We should be doing a lot more with it and presenting it in a way in which it is readable and that people can use the data, if they wish. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

There is one particular kind of stat we are obsessed with discussing to the point where its always the longest thread on this forum!

[Archie Gordon]

It would help if the stats were made easily available/analysable. However, rugby-league.com and superleague.co.uk are just terrible for most things and worse for stats.

[MattSantos]

I've jumped on this thread as i've been moaning at how RL has been presented in the UK for nigh on 20 years.

Statistics is just one tool that commentators can use to talk about the game in a modern and interesting way. I subscribe to The Athletic which for those unaware is aiming to be 'the best newsroom in sports, filling a void for fans hungry for deeper sports news and better coverage of their local teams. A quick glance shows the following articles above and beyond the usual daily news updates:

1. X number of things we've learned from mini-camp. An absolute staple in the NFL with multiple articles across multiple teams

2. A thought piece on QB contracts

3. What does player X do well - pros and cons

4. US Open analysis

5. US Open course analysis

6. A review of the PGA / LIV debacle

7. Different ways Premier League clubs make money

8. How will X play now Y has happened?

9. 50 players to watch

10. A mailbag.

All of these are quite interesting and this is just a snapshot. It's clear that the way we view and consume sporting content has changed. It's become more nuanced and intelligent. Brilliant. This is what i want, so i'm happy. 

I've just googled Rugby League and the first website was loverugbyleague is saturated with articles that are just reporting stuff. a rehash of quotes. One article promises some thought analysis, but the headline lied and i've nothing new at all re Ryan Carr at the Dragons. No stats on the website.

Rugby-League.com is headlined by an article written 8 days ago. Some nice stuff about schools rugby etc to be fair, but it's hardly going to create debate.

Begs the question, why hasn't this happened in Rugby League? Is the appetite there or should the RL media be generating this content to help drive more engagement. 

Am i just moaning because i'm Northern, or should we, as fans be entitled to want more?

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by MattSantos

[DavidM]

Couldn’t care less , never bother with them to illustrate my points . There was a stat I read that showed 98.5 % of stats are useless 

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

It would help if the stats were made easily available/analysable. However, rugby-league.com and superleague.co.uk are just terrible for most things and worse for stats.

And somehow managed to get worse in the latest revamp.

Even finding fixtures can be an interesting experience.

[GUBRATS]

21 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Couldn’t care less , never bother with them to illustrate my points . There was a stat I read that showed 98.5 % of stats are useless 

Only ' stat ' that matters is who won