Sat 22 July : Betfred RL Challenge Cup Semi Final : St Helens v Leigh Leopards KO 14:30 BBC1

[Jughead]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You quite obviously hope so, typical comment from a Saints fan who considers losing is not in their remit, live with it.

What are you on about? 

Yes, I hope players are penalised for foul play. Don’t you?

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Not attack the joints that don’t naturally in that way. I mean, that’s the very basics of it. I think it was malicious and nasty and not the first tackle of that nature that Asiata and his moon head attempted. 

I just don't see it myself.

It is the last few minutes of a Challenge Cup semi final and they are defending a lead desperately on their line.  I just can't see him deciding to attack the joint, it was a desperate throw of his body into a tackle to stop a charging big man.

This is so different to a calculated attack on the standing leg of a held player.

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, hullste said:

I don't think any of us are using it for a reason we lost.

We lost?

Hullste?, forgive me I thought you had an independent view, the comment says everything!

[hullste]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We lost?

Hullste?, forgive me I thought you had an independent view, the comment says everything!

What??? I'm not allowed an opinion because I support Saints???

[OriginalMrC]

Delighted for Leigh, Derek and their fans. They were ridiculed (rightly IMO) about the branding but they've recruited well and are the real deal. Going to be some day out in Wembley for them 

[Derwent]

Perfectly legal tackle, contact is with the shoulder and there is an attempt to wrap the arms around.

 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I think the point is more how long has it been since there wasn't a final involving one of those 4?

You have to go back to 1986 for the Challenge Cup.

Every SL final has featured one.

As good as it's been that there's been a number of new faces recently (and winners), it's always against one of the old guard.

 

The problem with this is that it puts a really quite specific set of conditions on the finalists. 

When Wire made it in 2009 it was their first final for 19 years and their first win for almost 35 years. But because somebody wants to be negative about it suddenly we get wrapped in as one of the usual suspects. 

We almost go to extraordinary lengths to portray the most negative picture possible. 

The Challenge Cup has had variety galore and some superb underdog stories and some absolute classic finals. Yet RL fans will still moan about the finalists when there is nowt wrong with it in the sligtest. 

Due to Leigh winning today, the last decade will have seen every SL club bar Wakefield play in a Challenge Cup Final. That is an astounding stat. 

[Dave T]

On the two tackles, my instincts tell me they are legal tackles, but they did make me feel slightly uneasy.

They were quite unusual tackles, and on that basis I think they'll be looked at. There did appear to be a clear aim at the knee, which most tackles don't tend to do. 

But, I still don't know whether they were illegal, I suppose the disciplinary will decide on that, they are more qualified on stuff like this, so what will be will be. 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

The Asiata “challenge” on Paasi was malicious and nasty and had that been Knowles on a Leigh player, everyone would want him banned for life. There’s no way he should be anywhere but the stands come the date of the final (and for about 3 weeks after). Wellens has also confirmed that Paasi’s knee has been obliterated by Asiata, so that’s him done till about April next year, if we’re lucky. Hopefully Walmsley isn’t the same. 

Nonsense

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On the two tackles, my instincts tell me they are legal tackles, but they did make me feel slightly uneasy.

They were quite unusual tackles, and on that basis I think they'll be looked at. There did appear to be a clear aim at the knee, which most tackles don't tend to do. 

But, I still don't know whether they were illegal, I suppose the disciplinary will decide on that, they are more qualified on stuff like this, so what will be will be. 

I really can't see anything coming of the Walmsley one.  It was front on and low, how can we punish that.

The Paasi one was side on and so hit the joint in a more dangerous way.  As I say, while it wasn't pretty, I thought it was OK too.

As you say, we will see.

[meast]

2 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It was more a case of throwing something/anything in front of a rampaging Paasi.

Personally I would like to see those non-wrap incidents result in 10 minutes and bans. They can be very nasty.

Should it be allowed though?

I'm assuming the attacker isn't expecting it and can't brace for any impact?

If there's no issue then potentially we could see players just smashing into people's lower limbs with knees, heads and feet?

As I said, could be very dangerous as the injuries to Paasi and Walmsley suggest.

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Must say I am somewhat puzzled by all those who are calling for Asita's head to be put on the block, what he executed were great defensive tackles non of the many commentators or the match officials considered anything wrong with the tackles, OK I will say it the game has been sanitised massively from what I grew up with sometimes for the better but not in situations like this if a player on a one to one tackle on an opponent lowdown does he have to consider am I going to hit him in a place I shouldn't? Totally bolux.

The place he hit Walmsley and Paasi was fine. It was the leading with shoulder/head and the absence of wrapping arms that is the issue of concern.

I admire him for being so eager to put his body on the line to protect his try-line but I feel the game can do without those no-arm attacks on the lower limbs.

Edited July 22, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[meast]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

The Asiata “challenge” on Paasi was malicious and nasty and had that been Knowles on a Leigh player, everyone would want him banned for life. There’s no way he should be anywhere but the stands come the date of the final (and for about 3 weeks after). Wellens has also confirmed that Paasi’s knee has been obliterated by Asiata, so that’s him done till about April next year, if we’re lucky. Hopefully Walmsley isn’t the same. 

As I said, it looked nasty, maybe not malicious as there didn't appear to be any part of Asiata's hands involved, same with Walmsley.

I guess we'll find out if it was deemed unsporting or malicious when the MRP release their findings.

[meast]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Must say I am somewhat puzzled by all those who are calling for Asita's head to be put on the block, what he executed were great defensive tackles non of the many commentators or the match officials considered anything wrong with the tackles, OK I will say it the game has been sanitised massively from what I grew up with sometimes for the better but not in situations like this if a player on a one to one tackle on an opponent lowdown does he have to consider am I going to hit him in a place I shouldn't? Totally bolux.

 Not sure anyone is calling for his head and not sure they were both "great defensive tackles" either.

They were certainly clumsy and dangerous if not strictly illegal.

[StandOffHalf]

6 minutes ago, meast said:

Should it be allowed though?

I'm assuming the attacker isn't expecting it and can't brace for any impact?

If there's no issue then potentially we could see players just smashing into people's lower limbs with knees, heads and feet?

As I said, could be very dangerous as the injuries to Paasi and Walmsley suggest.

Gridiron style - leading with the helmet when tackling.

Not something I want to see in RL.

[Damien]

40 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We lost?

Hullste?, forgive me I thought you had an independent view, the comment says everything!

You obviously haven't read his posts before. One of the most one eyed Saints fans on here.

[StandOffHalf]

I'm not calling for Asiata's head at all. I, in fact, admire his play - and his off-field resolve - immensely.

The game doesn't need those type of challenges though.

[ELBOWSEYE]

2 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I agree, HG.  You cannot get nerdier than a bus spotter!

My interest in RL developed in the 1960s when my family moved fro Gloucestershire and we lived in Astley.  One of the bus services running through the village was the 26 from Leigh to Salford.  It was jointly operated by Leigh Corporation, Salford Corporation and Lancashire United Transport.  Leigh, whose buses were blue and cream, typically used one of their AEC 'Renown' double deckers, with bodywork by East Lancashire Coachbuilders of Blackburn; by contrast, Salford tended to use exposed radiator Daimler CVD6 double deckers, with Metro-Cammell bodywork, always looking attractive in their dark green and cream livery; and the LUT double deckers were usually Guy 'Arab' mark V's with Northern Counties of Wigan bodywork, turned out in the distinctive red and cream (but with an orange tinge) livery of that company.

As you say, HG, you cannot get nerdier than a bus spotter....!

Wrong on the LUT guy Arabs they red and grey they only changed when GM buses took them over in 1977, I was the last apprentice in LUT in 1977. So a bus spotter but not correct.

[GeordieSaint]

28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

On the two tackles, my instincts tell me they are legal tackles, but they did make me feel slightly uneasy.

They were quite unusual tackles, and on that basis I think they'll be looked at. There did appear to be a clear aim at the knee, which most tackles don't tend to do. 

But, I still don't know whether they were illegal, I suppose the disciplinary will decide on that, they are more qualified on stuff like this, so what will be will be. 

I am on the same page as your explanation here Dave - especially your middle paragraph. I wasn’t going to bring up the issue due to the nature of this board currently. 

The tackle attempts IMO weren’t malicious as I don’t think he was intending to hurt the players. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they are classed as reckless. The latter one on Paasi was out of sheer desperation to stop the try at the end of the game - but it’s horrible to watch. And has resulted in a likely serious injury. 

I guess we’ll wait for the disciplinary board. 

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I really can't see anything coming of the Walmsley one.  It was front on and low, how can we punish that.

The Paasi one was side on and so hit the joint in a more dangerous way.  As I say, while it wasn't pretty, I thought it was OK too.

As you say, we will see.

You could be right, just watching it again I do think it is odd, it is lower than probably 99.9% of tackles, he is almost on the ground himself and he does go in with force, but as I say I don't know whether that makes it illegal play. 

Watching the 2nd one again, I don't like it one bit. But as I say, I'm not 100% sure it is illegal. 

I think there is a case for a reckless charge on both, or a caution, but I just don't know. 

[Leigh-On-Kiwi]

Minds blown at these Asiata tackle comments, none are malicious and IMO are legal to the game... if he sees a ban for them we may aswell just play touch.

[StandOffHalf]

52 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I am on the same page as your explanation here Dave - especially your middle paragraph. I wasn’t going to bring up the issue due to the nature of this board currently. 

The tackle attempts IMO weren’t malicious as I don’t think he was intending to hurt the players. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they are classed as reckless. The latter one on Paasi was out of sheer desperation to stop the try at the end of the game - but it’s horrible to watch. And has resulted in a likely serious injury. 

I guess we’ll wait for the disciplinary board. 

I am on the same page as you GS - especially your middle paragraph. Desperation is a good description.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

What are you on about? 

Yes, I hope players are penalised for foul play. Don’t you?

It wasnt foul play though, who has said it was only Saints fans, non of the officials or commentators.

[corvusxiii]

7 hours ago, Damien said:

Who said the Challenge Cup was dead and should be scrapped? Great scenes and what a special moment.

Yes Indeed! But another St PieLoins final and I'm washing the lawn on the final day.

[corvusxiii]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

No matter what happens tomorrow the final has a great story around it. If Hull KR get there we will have another club winning the Cup that hasn't won it for decades. We will also have a final without any of the big clubs that regularly get to the finals. If Wigan get there we have a great local derby which should be a fantastic occasion and one which has a huge marketing angle. It'll be great either way.

My argument is that RL is stronger with Leigh v HullKR final than the St PieLoins. If I'm wrong then what is the future for ......