Loop fixtures to stay......

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Doing the same old thing and expecting different results is overrated too.

I think there are far bigger things that we need to work on than loop fixtures though. 

I think we are missing the point somewhat if we look at Wigan v Wire games crowds dropping and just putting it down to repeat fixtures. I think we have a real problem that our events are so fragile and lacking in any 'must-see' element that games at the top end of the game just aren't in that much demand.

I get the principle of the point, and I agree with parts of it, but if we think about what people are asking for here, they are asking for Warrington not to play Wigan a 3rd time, and to play Featherstone instead. We went down this route with the Super 8's, and funnily enough, people didn't like that either.

I don't think repeat fixtures themselves are the root cause of the issue - of course it would be better if we didn't need them, and I'd like to see a plan to get rid of them, but I do worry when people are shouting for 22 rounds, plus cup and playoffs. IMHO that is too short a season and would lose us visibilty and presence in the UK sports market.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

With the loop fixtures I feel it's the same fixtures syndrome that is causing some crowds to drop. I know when Warrington were playing saints or Wigan away once in a season (league games only) you would looking at the fixtures to make sure you went to those games. Once you new that there's a chance of two games plus cup and playoffs the need to attend falls away.

There is some logic to this, however I don't think the data is conclusive.

For the last three proper seasons the Wire v Wigan games have attracted:

2019 - 12k & 13k (25k) - 4 matches

2022 - 10 & 13k (23k) - 2 matches

2023 - 15k & 13k (28k) - 3 matches

My point is that we are focusing on the wrong thing. Other things have a bigger impact imho.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dave T

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there are far bigger things that we need to work on than loop fixtures though. 

I think we are missing the point somewhat if we look at Wigan v Wire games crowds dropping and just putting it down to repeat fixtures. I think we have a real problem that our events are so fragile and lacking in any 'must-see' element that games at the top end of the game just aren't in that much demand.

I get the principle of the point, and I agree with parts of it, but if we think about what people are asking for here, they are asking for Warrington not to play Wigan a 3rd time, and to play Featherstone instead. We went down this route with the Super 8's, and funnily enough, people didn't like that either.

I don't think repeat fixtures themselves are the root cause of the issue - of course it would be better if we didn't need them, and I'd like to see a plan to get rid of them, but I do worry when people are shouting for 22 rounds, plus cup and playoffs. IMHO that is too short a season and would lose us visibilty and presence in the UK sports market.

A 14 team Super League is fundamentally different to the Super 8s though, to the extent that comparisons are absolutely meaningless. People who didn't like the Super 8s certainly didn't do so because it meant Wigan playing a team like Featherstone. It was all about the structure, the negative affect it had on clubs trying to build, the incredible waste of money it led to and the inequality of funding within the Championship.

I think 22 rounds is too short too when we dont have a mature international calendar to make up the shortfall.

 

[bamfordsbeans]

The SL clubs in there own way are as bad as the NRL clubs.

The Aussie clubs are very anti-the international game and at home the "Chosen 12 " are only interested in there own well being.

Historically this should never have been allowed to happen,but now that it has other sports with better vision will overtake our own regionalised efforts.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

 

I think 22 rounds is too short too when we dont have a mature international calendar to make up the shortfall.

 

I think this is an important point. Other than the Premier League and now probably The Hundred, I honestly couldn't tell you when any other domestic sporting competitions start and stop. The thing that keeps these other sports in the public eye is their respective international schedules.

Despite the announcement last week or whenever it was, England's international prospects for the foreseeable future are extremely limited, and nowhere near enough to make up the shortfall of a 22-week domestic season.

I wasn't against the introduction of Challenge Cup group stages and extending the season that way. I'm torn between losing the romance of the traditional knock-out format, and weighing that up against the potential benefits of removing loop fixtures and having a more substantial cup competition with guaranteed minimum numbers of fixtures for the clubs. Apart from the FA Cup, do any other big domestic cup competitions have straight knockouts any more?

[ELBOWSEYE]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I don't disagree with getting rid of loop fixtures. I think the alternatives at the moment are:

1 - Cull the number of rounds - I think that's a bad move financially and visibility-wise.

2 - Move up to 14 teams - a sound principle - but do we really have 14 strong teams and enough players etc?

3 - Another comp to replace it - group stages in the cup etc. Unfortunately this will lead to loop fixtures.

None of the above are ideal - I think option 2 is where we need to be, but I don;t think that can be delivered by simply moving two teams in - we are meant to be standards-driven.

Totally agree Dave ,we aren't that far off, who ever is relegated plus TO gets 13, it's just the 14th spot, there are lots of potential  clubs some with potential fan bases but it's the player development that needs work in lots of areas.

[Mumby Magic]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

There is some logic to this, however I don't think the data is conclusive.

For the last three proper seasons the Wire v Wigan games have attracted:

2019 - 12k & 13k (25k) - 4 matches

2022 - 10 & 13k (23k) - 2 matches

2023 - 15k & 13k (28k) - 3 matches

My point is that we are focusing on the wrong thing. Other things have a bigger impact imho.

I dont get the stats Dave.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mumby Magic

[ELBOWSEYE]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

There is some logic to this, however I don't think the data is conclusive.

For the last three proper seasons the Wire v Wigan games have attracted:

2019 - 12k & 13k (25k) - 4 matches

2022 - 10 & 13k (23k) - 2 matches

2023 - 15k & 13k (28k) - 3 matches

My point is that we are focusing on the wrong thing. Other things have a bigger impact imho.

Dave facts are great but in small bands they miss bigger pictures, I remember 20k at Wigan first game in the snow and it's was in Smiths reign. I agree there's other factors but that was the only time away we played Wigan and fans didn't want to miss it, but Wigan were better at promoting games in that period, they had target games other than saints,both Leeds and Warrington had crowds over 20k at Wigan, then loop fixtures sort of overkill the anticipation.

[Gomersall]

6 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

it's the player development that needs work in lots of areas.

I couldn’t agree more.

[Monkeymagic22]

It’s often said that we haven’t enough players for 14 teams in SL, which is really damning of todays RL. So why don’t we ring fence some of the TV money for academies, and get more teams to have sides?. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

A 14 team Super League is fundamentally different to the Super 8s though, to the extent that comparisons are absolutely meaningless. People who didn't like the Super 8s certainly didn't do so because it meant Wigan playing a team like Featherstone. It was all about the structure, the negative affect it had on clubs trying to build, the incredible waste of money it led to and the inequality of funding within the Championship.

I think 22 rounds is too short too when we dont have a mature international calendar to make up the shortfall.

 

I think the last line is my biggest issue. I can live with loop fixtures as long as it is a means to an end. If we have this while we work on strengthening to 14 teams, then great, we get there when we get there. I don't think just adding two more Champ teams is the right way to go necessarily.

Mind, I am also ok with the Cup group games proposal, but I know that is broadly unpopular and we'll just end up with similar complaints to the Loop fixtures.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Dave facts are great but in small bands they miss bigger pictures, I remember 20k at Wigan first game in the snow and it's was in Smiths reign. I agree there's other factors but that was the only time away we played Wigan and fans didn't want to miss it, but Wigan were better at promoting games in that period, they had target games other than saints,both Leeds and Warrington had crowds over 20k at Wigan, then loop fixtures sort of overkill the anticipation.

I think we are broadly making the same point but coming up with slightly different conclusions. I think we can get to 20k gates for these games even in a season that features loop games. Sure it aint perfect, and I don't think you'd design your comp like that if you started from scratch, but as a means to an end, they are fine imo.

 

[Dave T]

53 minutes ago, bamfordsbeans said:

The SL clubs in there own way are as bad as the NRL clubs.

The Aussie clubs are very anti-the international game and at home the "Chosen 12 " are only interested in there own well being.

Historically this should never have been allowed to happen,but now that it has other sports with better vision will overtake our own regionalised efforts.

Out of the 24 clubs that have been in SL over the years, which are the "chosen 12"?

A few years ago people would have had Bradford at the top of that list. Leigh would have been nowhere near it. Apparently Toronto benefited from favouritism, and suffered from insularity. We go against expansion, but have seen London, Catalans, Gateshead, Crusaders, Toronto, Paris etc in SL.

There is no chosen few. If you are strong enough, you will be at the top table. It's how its always been.

[Snowys Backside]

Can't have loop fixture remaining should P&R still be in place. Really hate them. Unfair on who become Champs and relegated.

Magic Weekend eating into the Grand Final and Wembley Attendances, and plans to Televise every single SL game next year to boot ?

Can anyone foresee an increase in attendances next year ?

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

23 minutes ago, Monkeymagic22 said:

It’s often said that we haven’t enough players for 14 teams in SL, which is really damning of todays RL. So why don’t we ring fence some of the TV money for academies, and get more teams to have sides?. 

There are a lot of players playing semi pro in the Championship...who if given SL level coaching, fitness and nutrition full time could step up and and be current SL quality 

I understand some may not want to but with 2 extra teams more players could be asked to step up 

 

[Griff]

1 minute ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

There are a lot of players playing semi pro in the Championship...who if given SL level coaching, fitness and nutrition full time could step up and and be current SL quality 

I understand some may not want to but with 2 extra teams more players could be asked to step up 

 

But they'll gravitate towards the bottom two of the fourteen, with the inevitable gap between top and bottom becoming wider.

[Hopie]

Other than individuals moaning on forums, I've yet to see a good reason to drop loop fixtures. A second home fixture against an attractive opponent attracts better crowds than the first home game against an unattractive one, and Sky show some match-ups 3 or more times a year. Some might not like it, but more do!

[Damien]

 

 

[Chris22]

As far as I see it, the clubs face a reduction in central funding due to a reduced value TV deal. Then, they were asked whether they would wish to forego further matchday income by reducing the number of fixtures and replace that with no alternative income source.

What business in its right mind would be in favour of that?

[sam4731]

A word on loop fixtures... if Magic hadn't existed, London would have stayed up.

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

 

The problem is that when tv deals went up people didn't praise the changes they made. 

Using it as a direct correlation can't onky be used one way. 

[M j M]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

 

 

Simplistic nonsense from Phil Caplan. I'm shocked.

[The Future is League]

12 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

I am guessing they aren't doing it for their love of Rugby League.

So how much is this "Load of cash"?

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

10 hours ago, Griff said:

But they'll gravitate towards the bottom two of the fourteen, with the inevitable gap between top and bottom becoming wider.

The point is that there is a large group of players who when training full time could be SL quality....plenty might end up being top drawer.......sport is full of late bloomers and I expect the Championship has lots 

I think Alex Warmsley was plucked from Batley ....when he trained full time he became a lot better 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

10 hours ago, Griff said:

But they'll gravitate towards the bottom two of the fourteen, with the inevitable gap between top and bottom becoming wider.

Why would they universally gravitate to the bottom 2 ? 

Lady years finalist Leeds pulled Hooley out of part time Rugby last year and are developing him into a SL quality player ..