England v Tonga series

[Hopie]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

Now is the time to announce the 2024 Samoa series.

It should have been announced before this series started ,but it's probably not been confirmed yet.

[sam4731]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

As it was a double header with Australia v New Zealand then I don't see that as a valid figure to use or compare with.

But at what point do we stop putting asterisks on it though?

[JonM]

23 minutes ago, Midlands hobo said:

Exactly can't lose. Great crowd stick it to twickers. No crowd same as Huddersfield 

Capacity less than 12K, so great crowd isn't really an option.

[Gomersall]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

 

 

I reckon today’s attendance would also beat a few NZ ones, certainly from around the early 1970s

[welshmagpie]

1 hour ago, Midlands hobo said:

I'd think Worcester is a missed opportunity. Ex prem RU ground for now bankrupt team just sitting empty.

The last game of rugby league in Worcester attracted 18 fans. The one before it 89! The former was ####### with rain, the latter a roasting hot day and our first ever home game as a club (Worcester Rebels).

[DI Keith Fowler]

3 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

The last game of rugby league in Worcester attracted 18 fans. The one before it 89! The former was ####### with rain, the latter a roasting hot day and our first ever home game as a club (Worcester Rebels).

Well if global warming continues at it's present pace you can expect exponential growth in crowds.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, sam4731 said:

But at what point do we stop putting asterisks on it though?

What do you mean at one point? You've cited one match and it was a double header that included a game between two tier 1 nations.

[Chris22]

A mixed bag in terms of attendances for this series, in my view.

What we have seen is that matches against the likes of Tonga do not have the same appeal to heartlands crowds as matches against New Zealand and Australia, or World Cup matches. But, it was largely in keeping with other non-RLWC matches against Tier 2 nations.

With us expected to face Samoa, it will be interesting to see what lessons are learned. This series seems to be at least in the pipeline far earlier than the Tonga series this year.

Leeds tends to draw strong international crowds, probably the strongest of the heartlands, so I think a first test at Headingley would be a good starting point. Next year, I'd like to see a test at a non-heartland venue. Coventry attracted a 21,000 crowd for England v Scotland in 2016 and a relatively strong crowd at the World Cup last year, so that would be one option.

I think there's reason to think a smaller London venue would do equally as well (if not better) than Saints or Huddersfield this year, so I wouldn't be averse to London hosting the non-heartland test. Finding a suitable, available and willing venue may prove tricky though.

As for the third test, I'd stay out of West Yorkshire given that Leeds is already hosting. Maybe Hull?

 

[sam4731]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

What do you mean at one point? You've cited one match and it was a double header that included a game between two tier 1 nations.

But it's non WC, then it's not matches against Aus or NZ, then it's not double headers. There's really not much left anyway. It's almost like saying this is the biggest attendance that we've got at 2:30pm on a Saturday afternoon with the pitch temperature of 12 degrees (all of which is obviously made up). The more conditions you attach to it, the less impressive it becomes.

[Midlands hobo]

8 hours ago, welshmagpie said:

The last game of rugby league in Worcester attracted 18 fans. The one before it 89! The former was ####### with rain, the latter a roasting hot day and our first ever home game as a club (Worcester Rebels).

Sounds like scorpions at Caerphilly 

[Midlands hobo]

6 hours ago, Chris22 said:

A mixed bag in terms of attendances for this series, in my view.

What we have seen is that matches against the likes of Tonga do not have the same appeal to heartlands crowds as matches against New Zealand and Australia, or World Cup matches. But, it was largely in keeping with other non-RLWC matches against Tier 2 nations.

With us expected to face Samoa, it will be interesting to see what lessons are learned. This series seems to be at least in the pipeline far earlier than the Tonga series this year.

Leeds tends to draw strong international crowds, probably the strongest of the heartlands, so I think a first test at Headingley would be a good starting point. Next year, I'd like to see a test at a non-heartland venue. Coventry attracted a 21,000 crowd for England v Scotland in 2016 and a relatively strong crowd at the World Cup last year, so that would be one option.

I think there's reason to think a smaller London venue would do equally as well (if not better) than Saints or Huddersfield this year, so I wouldn't be averse to London hosting the non-heartland test. Finding a suitable, available and willing venue may prove tricky though.

As for the third test, I'd stay out of West Yorkshire given that Leeds is already hosting. Maybe Hull?

 

Coventry now firmly in the hands of cov city and as the damage from commonwealth games sevens caused the pitch to be out of action for a number of weeks this season they won't want anyone near it regards of how little damage they do.

[GeordieSaint]

Good summary in my opinion:

Only one that doesn’t hit home is Newman. Played well. But I think Farnworth and Wardle are better. Newman definitely in the squad though. 

[Jack GB]

6 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Good summary in my opinion:

Only one that doesn’t hit home is Newman. Played well. But I think Farnworth and Wardle are better. Newman definitely in the squad though. 

I would rather have "SL players underrated" than NRL overrated... 

agree we need a game in London every time we have a series.

 

[Just Browny]

12 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Good summary in my opinion:

Only one that doesn’t hit home is Newman. Played well. But I think Farnworth and Wardle are better. Newman definitely in the squad though. 

Farnworth and Wardle (whose elevation to 'god' status has been very swift) both play on the left, Newman has been great on the right. We can struggle with right centres because the left to right pass is harder to get right for most players.

[Damien]

9 hours ago, sam4731 said:

But it's non WC, then it's not matches against Aus or NZ, then it's not double headers. There's really not much left anyway. It's almost like saying this is the biggest attendance that we've got at 2:30pm on a Saturday afternoon with the pitch temperature of 12 degrees (all of which is obviously made up). The more conditions you attach to it, the less impressive it becomes.

It's really not. The point of the tweet is quite clear despite your whataboutery.

There is literally only one thing that you exclude to make it true, no double headers. They don't get counted in anything else so I'm not sure why you want to count them now.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Damien

[DoubleD]

10 hours ago, Chris22 said:

A mixed bag in terms of attendances for this series, in my view.

What we have seen is that matches against the likes of Tonga do not have the same appeal to heartlands crowds as matches against New Zealand and Australia, or World Cup matches. But, it was largely in keeping with other non-RLWC matches against Tier 2 nations.

With us expected to face Samoa, it will be interesting to see what lessons are learned. This series seems to be at least in the pipeline far earlier than the Tonga series this year.

Leeds tends to draw strong international crowds, probably the strongest of the heartlands, so I think a first test at Headingley would be a good starting point. Next year, I'd like to see a test at a non-heartland venue. Coventry attracted a 21,000 crowd for England v Scotland in 2016 and a relatively strong crowd at the World Cup last year, so that would be one option.

I think there's reason to think a smaller London venue would do equally as well (if not better) than Saints or Huddersfield this year, so I wouldn't be averse to London hosting the non-heartland test. Finding a suitable, available and willing venue may prove tricky though.

As for the third test, I'd stay out of West Yorkshire given that Leeds is already hosting. Maybe Hull?

 

Hull has consistently fared poorly for internationals and shouldn’t be considered.

For Samoa, I’d go with Leeds, Wigan and London/Newcastle. Anything other than a major London stadium doesn’t make sense though as it won’t be appealing enough to attract the event/casual crowd

[Coastal_Geordie]

7 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Hull has consistently fared poorly for internationals and shouldn’t be considered.

For Samoa, I’d go with Leeds, Wigan and London/Newcastle. Anything other than a major London stadium doesn’t make sense though as it won’t be appealing enough to attract the event/casual crowd

That is the key - making it an “event”.

The WC opener v Samoa was an event, I know so many people (including Union fans) who went it being their first ever RL match attended.  Everyone I spoke to enjoyed it.

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

Hull has consistently fared poorly for internationals and shouldn’t be considered.

For Samoa, I’d go with Leeds, Wigan and London/Newcastle. Anything other than a major London stadium doesn’t make sense though as it won’t be appealing enough to attract the event/casual crowd

Eh?  It’s been some time since an international at Hull but the last had 17500 in 2018 and before that 24/25k.

Should we be ruling out Saints and Hudds before Hull?

imo the biggest cause of low crowds is lack of planning and RFL effort.  Not sure who is responsible but their roles can be commission/bonus related.

[Gomersall]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Eh?  It’s been some time since an international at Hull but the last had 17500 in 2018 and before that 24/25k.

Should we be ruling out Saints and Hudds before Hull?

imo the biggest cause of low crowds is lack of planning and RFL effort.  Not sure who is responsible but their roles can be commission/bonus related.

The last international at Hull was New Zealand v Jamaica at the last WC with about 7,000 there.

[Lowdesert]

48 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

The last international at Hull was New Zealand v Jamaica at the last WC with about 7,000 there.

Stand corrected mate

edit:  seems Jamaica didn’t get many species through the gate but the NZ game brought the most, so based on other stadiums:

Attendance: 6,320, at Headingley, Leeds.

Attendance: 6,829 at MKM Stadium, Hull.

Attendance: 5,006 at Leigh Sports Village, Leigh.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Lowdesert

[londonrlfan]

19 hours ago, EggFace said:

RFL need to try harder and to sell packages to pro/semi/am/Touch and Tag clubs

I reckon there must be plenty of Marketing graduates fresh out of Uni who could do a better job of marketing the sport than the RFL. We should use Eric Perez more to sell big events/internationals. 

[londonrlfan]

21 hours ago, Yorky said:

True, but small wins where we can get them - thats good news - perhaps the world cup effect has got a few more interested in the game. 

What is important now is that it's built on. A series against Samoa 2024 could help do that, especially with the sellable semi final revenge angle to it 

Not sure "we beat Samoa in 3 match series" sells, or is as exciting, as "we won the xxxxx Cup". There's no reason why RL can't have a second major tournament alongside the WC, especially with the improvement from the Pacific nations. 

[londonrlfan]

17 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Stand corrected mate

edit:  seems Jamaica didn’t get many species through the gate but the NZ game brought the most, so based on other stadiums:

Attendance: 6,320, at Headingley, Leeds.

Attendance: 6,829 at MKM Stadium, Hull.

Attendance: 5,006 at Leigh Sports Village, Leigh.

There was so much potential with Jamaica with the large Jamaican and Caribbean diaspora in England, but as usual, it was completely wasted. 

[Lowdesert]

Just now, londonrlfan said:

There was so much potential with Jamaica with the large Jamaican and Caribbean diaspora in England, but as usual, it was completely wasted. 

I can understand Leeds, for the Jamaican games but I would have thought having another nearer Birmingham would’ve seen a larger attendance at the time.

Amazingly, England v Greece brought 18760 at Bramall Lane.

[Dunbar]

My England player ratings for the series.  I think it would be harsh to find a poor player and so my lowest ratings are 6.  I think you could find a 9 out of 10 performance for an individual game but these are for the whole series.

The players that played across all 3 games: 

Welsby - 7.5 - I thought he was a little quiet across the series and his running game was down on where we know it can be but he came up with some very classy passing plays when it mattered to set up tries.  He can be better in contact in defence but a modern full back is all about attack and this is where he shines.

Newman - 7 - Has taken his unexpected chance at international level with both hands.  Kept his temperament in check and as well as a running threat he put his winger away with some very good hands, a part of his game we haven't seen enough of.

Johnstone - 8 - An excellent start to a much belated international career due to such bad luck with injury.  He returns the ball well and very rarely loses a collision and then has the pace to score when given space.  Just a bombed try from a McMeeken kick in the second test blotting what would have been a perfect series.

Smith - 8.5 - England's player of the series for me.  He is delivering the tactical kicking game that we have been missing for so long.  Yes, our kick chase was good but it needs to be off the back of a well executed kick and Smith just delivers in this area.  Add on a couple of try assists with hands and boot and he will be delighted with the start of his test career.

Burgess - 7.5 - You just don't get a bad game from Burgess as he will always dominate a ruck with the ball in his hands and always deliver metres.  He has taken the errors out of his game and also offered up a few very useful offloads.  As with his club side, England can find attacking plays from his fast play the balls.

Clark - 7 - Showed why he should have been in the World Cup squad, class is permanent.  Good distribution and a good engine in attack and defence.

Lees - 6 - I take on board the comments that he leads the line in defence but he really is too small to make an impact with the ball in hand and he got bullied carrying the ball away from his line.  To be a world class prop, you have to contribute with the ball better than this.  A silly yellow card in game 3.

Bateman - 7.5 - Simply the ultimate competitor.  You want the guy on your side as he will never take a backward step and unlike when he is in the middle (where he also suffers from a lack of size), his footwork on the edge makes him a running threat.

Whitehead - 7 - Will never let anyone down.  His 3rd test was the best i thought with the try and his strong carries.  Across the series not quite as good as Bateman.

Walker - 6 - Added a bit of energy when he came on in each game but didn't set the game alight.

Hill - 7 - Very strong in the first two games and carried on where Burgess left off with the strong carries.

McMeeken - 7.5 - Alongside Burgess our best middle.  Has the size to trouble the top teams but also fit and mobile.  Can be a very good international middle forward for the next couple of years.

 

The players that played in 2 games:

King - 7 - Another who carried the ball strongly in the first two games.  Solid if not spectacular

Ashton - 6.5 - Didn't let the side down and his pace was on show a number of times.  Probably didn't carry the ball as strongly as Makinson  or Johnstone but found his front with good footwork.

Lewis - 7.5 - The star of game 1 that got England off to a flier, a very dangerous ball runner and put his body in front of the big Tongan edge runners.  Would have played all three if the captain wasn't available again. 

Radley - 7 - probably not the impact we would have expected but has had a stop start year for his club.

 

The players that played in 1 game: 

Makinson - 6.5 - Another one where you know what you are going to get, heart of a lion carrying the ball with pace into the heart of the defence and can finish a try when given a chance.  Feels like his career is catching up with his body now but will never let anyone down in an England shirt.

Knowles - 7 - Added a bit of grunt when he came on in the first test and stood up well to the Tongan middle forwards.  Unlucky to then miss out with injury.

Currie - 7.5 - A very good contribution in the centre for the final game with a try and involvement in a couple of others.

Williams - 7 - Hard to come in for just one game after a decent time away from the field.  As a result not as sharp as he could have been.  Still international class. 

Mulhern - 6 - Solid effort in the 13 jumper but not spectacular

Dupree - 6 - As above with Mulhern, solid.

Farrell - N/A - Unfair to rate him on 3 minutes on the field I think.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dunbar