Hypothetical question for FC/KR fans

[daz39]

I know it will never happen hence why it's hypothetical BUT if Rovers shared or moved to the MKM Stadium would they get bigger crowds than FC or would geography come into play?

[Gomersall]

Hull have always been the better supported club historically. Even when Rovers were regularly winning trophies in the 80s they struggled to get five figure attendances.

[JohnM]

We were season ticket holders during the dying days of Central Park. A good few of the people in adjacent seats said they would not renew their seats when the club moved to the JJB. The reason? They walked from their house to CP in ten mins but would have to drive/bus/ long walk to the JJB. There were / are lots of houses and flats close to CP and I think the move resulted in losing older less mobile fans who lived close to CP.  In the case of the Hull clubs, I suspect the result would be the same.

[sentoffagain2]

28 minutes ago, JohnM said:

We were season ticket holders during the dying days of Central Park. A good few of the people in adjacent seats said they would not renew their seats when the club moved to the JJB. The reason? They walked from their house to CP in ten mins but would have to drive/bus/ long walk to the JJB. There were / are lots of houses and flats close to CP and I think the move resulted in losing older less mobile fans who lived close to CP.  In the case of the Hull clubs, I suspect the result would be the same.

     Hunslet was the same loads old stock houses a community that had pulled together through two world wars,Thriving Rugby League team better than Leeds pubs greyhound track plus Parkside which catered for rugby and cricket.Raised the houses to ground community dispersed to council estates and the fabric of society broken up.Ground sold by directors and Hunslet had to relocate.At one time every young un in East Leeds wanted to play for Hunslet.How times have changed.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, daz39 said:

I know it will never happen hence why it's hypothetical BUT if Rovers shared or moved to the MKM Stadium would they get bigger crowds than FC or would geography come into play?

No is the answer really. Not much else I could say really.

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

     Hunslet was the same loads old stock houses a community that had pulled together through two world wars,Thriving Rugby League team better than Leeds pubs greyhound track plus Parkside which catered for rugby and cricket.Raised the houses to ground community dispersed to council estates and the fabric of society broken up.Ground sold by directors and Hunslet had to relocate.At one time every young un in East Leeds wanted to play for Hunslet.How times have changed.

Nice summary. I’ve really no knowledge of most of the lower clubs, defunct clubs and their backgrounds. 

[JohnM]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Nice summary. I’ve really no knowledge of most of the lower clubs, defunct clubs and their backgrounds. 

That story mirrors the situation at Swinton -where I grew up - (and probably other clubs/towns, too) in the late 1950s and 1960s.  The diaspora resulting from new housing developments such as Little Hulton , rail closures, mill closures took a good number of people out of "walk-up" reach of Station Road. 

That's why Im sure that if Hull KR were to grounshare with Hull FC,  tribalism apart,many fans would not appreciate the move 

[Brigg Rover]

It doesn't answer your question but why would anyone want 10,000 fans in a stadium that holds 25,000? The atmosphere is not the same as 10,000 in a ground near capacity. 

Plus by moving into the MKM we would be losing so much revenue. Massive share of gates receipts to the stadium management. Can't host events that we can benefit from. No chance to develop your own identity. It just does not work in RL. You need massive TV income to be able to share a ground like that. RL clubs rely on gate receipts for a large proportion of their income. You need to be able to control your own destiny.

To your actual question, there have been times when Rovers have averaged more than FC, but it was a long time ago think late 60's was the last time. I have to say though that it is possible over the next 10 years if Rovers can maintain their trajectory of growth and can gradually increase the capacity of CP. I have never seen so many young teenage fans, boys and girls, than I do at Rovers now. I think this could carry on thus growing the club. If FC continue to struggle you may see some drop off in their support.   

[Ullman]

16 hours ago, daz39 said:

I know it will never happen hence why it's hypothetical BUT if Rovers shared or moved to the MKM Stadium would they get bigger crowds than FC or would geography come into play?

Along with Hull and City, Rovers were given the opportunity to play at the KC/MKM when it was first built.

They politely and sensibly declined. It would have been a suicidal move for them. Hull were just popping across Anlaby Road so remained in the heart of their community, Rovers would have been abandoning theirs.

[unapologetic pedant]

9 hours ago, JohnM said:

That story mirrors the situation at Swinton -where I grew up - (and probably other clubs/towns, too) in the late 1950s and 1960s.  The diaspora resulting from new housing developments such as Little Hulton , rail closures, mill closures took a good number of people out of "walk-up" reach of Station Road. 

I initially travelled to games from Walkden. It sometimes paid to have blue and white merch on display standing at a bus stop on Manchester Road. Fair chance a fan driving up from somewhere like Little Hulton would stop and give us a lift. Over the years, the lifts got fewer.

The calamitous effect on RL clubs of demographic dislocation reflected the intensely localized nature of support.

[bratman]

7 hours ago, Brigg Rover said:

It doesn't answer your question but why would anyone want 10,000 fans in a stadium that holds 25,000? The atmosphere is not the same as 10,000 in a ground near capacity. 

Completely agree, 10k at both these matches (KR/Saints, FC/Leeds)

[Ullman]

20 hours ago, bratman said:

Completely agree, 10k at both these matches (KR/Saints, FC/Leeds)

Point taken but wasn't it you who scoffed at the notion there were 10,000 in the MKM that day? I don't think you can have it both ways.

Anyway besides that, although the MKM is obviously far bigger than we need on a week to week basis it does gives us the opportunity to make the derby games into a major event and one of the few regular round rugby league games that draws a 20,000+ attendance. It makes it a real rugby league occasion rather than just a little local spat. Also, it wouldn't take much of an upturn in Hull's fortunes for us to be drawing crowds of 14,000-15,000 again for the bigger games. If we ever were in the unlikely position of moving to a ground of our own we wouldn't be using Craven Park as a model either. Though improved to an extent, I still think it's an ugly hotchpotch of a ground that would take an awful lot of money just to upgrade it to a modest standard.

[bratman]

27 minutes ago, Ullman said:

Point taken but wasn't it you who scoffed at the notion there were 10,000 in the MKM that day? I don't think you can have it both ways.

How many do you think are turning up each week?

[Old Frightful]

27 minutes ago, Ullman said:

Point taken but wasn't it you who scoffed at the notion there were 10,000 in the MKM that day? I don't think you can have it both ways.

Anyway besides that, although the MKM is obviously far bigger than we need on a week to week basis it does gives us the opportunity to make the derby games into a major event and one of the few regular round rugby league games that draws a 20,000+ attendance. It makes it a real rugby league occasion rather than just a little local spat. Also, it wouldn't take much of an upturn in Hull's fortunes for us to be drawing crowds of 14,000-15,000 again for the bigger games. If we ever were in the unlikely position of moving to a ground of our own we wouldn't be using Craven Park as a model either. Though improved to an extent, I still think it's an ugly hotchpotch of a ground that would take an awful lot of money just to upgrade it to a modest standard.

Bang on the money as ever.

When Hull KR presumably had their blank canvas for the new ground in 1988 (was it?), why in God’s name did they model it on the old Craven Park? The seated stand only stretches from one 20m line to the other meaning plenty of folk sat on the peripheral of it won’t see any tries scored in the nearest corner to them. And when are they ever going to do something for the spectators at the P&O* end?

(*formerly Rotterdam End but renamed to keep up with the news…)

[super major]

On 05/05/2024 at 10:54, Brigg Rover said:

It doesn't answer your question but why would anyone want 10,000 fans in a stadium that holds 25,000? The atmosphere is not the same as 10,000 in a ground near capacity. 

Plus by moving into the MKM we would be losing so much revenue. Massive share of gates receipts to the stadium management. Can't host events that we can benefit from. No chance to develop your own identity. It just does not work in RL. You need massive TV income to be able to share a ground like that. RL clubs rely on gate receipts for a large proportion of their income. You need to be able to control your own destiny.

 

A lot of what you say is correct but depending on the success of the club a 25000 capacity stadium with 15-17000 in is really great. 10,OOO capacity can mean a club can miss out when there is a potential 15000 crowd

Also whilst not owning the ground can be a drain on finances,having to pay full maintenance costs cannot be great.

ATEOTD It all boils down to a successful team

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, Old Frightful said:

Bang on the money as ever.

When Hull KR presumably had their blank canvas for the new ground in 1988 (was it?), why in God’s name did they model it on the old Craven Park? The seated stand only stretches from one 20m line to the other meaning plenty of folk sat on the peripheral of it won’t see any tries scored in the nearest corner to them. And when are they ever going to do something for the spectators at the P&O* end?

(*formerly Rotterdam End but renamed to keep up with the news…)

Tbf if seems that they’re doing plenty for fans at the Rotterdam End. The one area that seems prime for improvement but never seems to be on the radar is The Well. Plenty of room to build a decent stand or terrace with a decent rake (most importantly) and without affecting the existing structure. 

[Damien]

It's interesting to note that when Hull KR won the league in 1983/84 they averaged 6,920. Hull FC finished 2nd and had an average of 10,773.

The year before when the roles were reversed and Hull FC won the league they averaged 11,520 and Hull KR averaged 7,409 when finishing in 2nd place.

This does tend to backup the impression most would have that Hull FC do historically get the bigger crowds and have the bigger fanbase, even when both teams were flying. In my time watching the game that has certainly been the case.

Edited May 6 by Damien

[Old Frightful]

1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Tbf if seems that they’re doing plenty for fans at the Rotterdam End. The one area that seems prime for improvement but never seems to be on the radar is The Well. Plenty of room to build a decent stand or terrace with a decent rake (most importantly) and without affecting the existing structure. 

The Rotterdam end should have a stand like the one opposite, not "Craven Streat" where you can buy food and drink but not have a good seat or standing room there.

The "Well", if I understand you, is the bit in front of the seated West Stand, an exact replica of the old Craven Park. That whole side should have been a stand stretching from try line to try line either all seating or with a decent standing area in front of seating with a good view from pitch level.

They've done wonders to the ground in some areas, especially the North Stand but a 2K seated South Stand would really help out.

[Old Frightful]

37 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's interesting to note that when Hull KR won the league in 1983/84 they averaged 6,920. Hull FC finished 2nd and had an average of 10,773.

The year before when the roles were reversed and Hull FC won the league they averaged 11,520 and Hull KR averaged 7,409 when finishing in 2nd place.

This does tend to backup the impression most would have that Hull FC do historically get the bigger crowds and have the bigger fanbase, even when both teams were flying. In my time watching the game that has certainly been the case.

Will you please stop stating historic facts and just let us Hull FC fans continue being delusional.

[arcticchris]

Wigan fan so got no skin in this game. For me, across all sports, there is so little culture of 2 teams in the same town or city sharing a stadium that it could only feel equal if it was a brand new stadium in a neutral area.

It is common in Australia to share grounds and even in the NFL New York Jets and Giants share a stadium.

Works in European football as well but it would be tough to establish here even if economically it is an obviously sensible thing to do.

[Worzel]

On 04/05/2024 at 18:59, daz39 said:

I know it will never happen hence why it's hypothetical BUT if Rovers shared or moved to the MKM Stadium would they get bigger crowds than FC or would geography come into play?

No, Rovers are embedded in the East Hull community. Even if Hull FC didn’t exist, and so it wasn’t about ground sharing and all the psychology around the rivalry, if Rovers moved to play their games on the West side of the city I doubt that they’d get greater attendances. Probably less. 

It would be like Spurs playing south of the River Thames. Just wouldn’t help. 

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, Old Frightful said:

The Rotterdam end should have a stand like the one opposite, not "Craven Streat" where you can buy food and drink but not have a good seat or standing room there.

The "Well", if I understand you, is the bit in front of the seated West Stand, an exact replica of the old Craven Park. That whole side should have been a stand stretching from try line to try line either all seating or with a decent standing area in front of seating with a good view from pitch level.

They've done wonders to the ground in some areas, especially the North Stand but a 2K seated South Stand would really help out.

Craven Streat is presumably doing wonders for HXR’s cash flow and certainly offers a different experience to literally every other ground since Toronto. Understand your frustration given your lot were the only ones who were allocated tickets on an oil rig, but it seems to work out for every other game.

Yes you are correct in where you understand the Well to be. It’s only got about 7/8 rows of very narrow terracing with a dreadful rake and quite a significant space in front of it, even after the pitch was widened. Would think there is tonnes of scope to build an entirely new stand in that space without affecting the existing structure (other than potentially the pitch-facing lounges). I reckon the views from the main stand offers one of the best perspectives in RL for what it’s worth. 

[MZH]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

No, Rovers are embedded in the East Hull community. Even if Hull FC didn’t exist, and so it wasn’t about ground sharing and all the psychology around the rivalry, if Rovers moved to play their games on the West side of the city I doubt that they’d get greater attendances. Probably less. 

It would be like Spurs playing south of the River Thames. Just wouldn’t help. 

One of your posts that I fully agree with Worzel. Hull KR, like most rugby league clubs, are a big part of their local community. A good chunk of the fan base are born and raised in and around Preston Rd, Holderness Rd etc. Many will probably walk to the stadium on game day. Moving the club away from that area is only going to alienate many of those fans, and it's unlikely you would pick up many new one.

Exactly the same would apply if Hull FC moved East.

[MZH]

On 05/05/2024 at 10:54, Brigg Rover said:

Plus by moving into the MKM we would be losing so much revenue. Massive share of gates receipts to the stadium management. Can't host events that we can benefit from. No chance to develop your own identity. It just does not work in RL. You need massive TV income to be able to share a ground like that. RL clubs rely on gate receipts for a large proportion of their income. You need to be able to control your own destiny.

Whilst most of your post is perfectly reasonable I don't necessarily agree with this bit. You have highlighted some of Hull's current issues with their lease, but that doesn't mean it always has to be that way. It depends what sort of deal you are able to agree for yourself. In hindsight the one we agreed when we moved in was a poor one.

[Ullman]

21 hours ago, bratman said:

How many do you think are turning up each week?

It's difficult to say but there are definitely people wo have paid for season memberships who have stopped attending even though they've paid up front. I guess they're still counted in the official attendance as paying customers.

As you suggested at the time, I think the crowd for the Leeds game was much lower than the official figure.