Time to move the Grand Final (Merged Threads)

[Padge]

On 12/05/2024 at 22:17, OriginalMrC said:

Wembley, London Stadium, Spurs, Anfield, Emirates to name a few 

London is a none starter for a game at short notice. 

Anfield is ######.

[Loiner]

No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North

Now what?

On 12/05/2024 at 19:48, wilsontown said:

We seem to do this question several times a season. For the prosecution:

• It's falling to bits
• The pitch is too short and the in-goals are dangerous as a result

For the defence:

• No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North

Now what?

"No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North." We don't need a ground that holds 75,000, how many times over the years has it been full to capacity? The Eitihad or Newcastle would be just as good and make it a 3 o'clock kick off as well.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Ok...let's say one sell out and one close out of 26 

Is that a good chance of it happening regularly? 

Especially now when the last 6 years have averaged under 60,000

Is a 1.5 chance out of 26 of a sell out worth crappy small seats, awful concourses, a generally horrid and dated / uncomfortable experience? 

Shouldn't we be calling out Man United for not maintaining the the stadium? Or should we be pathetically grateful ?

We choose the best option for me and one that fits our CURRENT expected size of crowd ....with maybe a few missing out for no booking early (which is a desirable situation to be in )

In the future if say a lot more fans missing out then you know what tough...make our best occasion a risk to book later....a risk people might miss out on...scarcity can be valued and ultimately increases value 

Or we put up with a shabby experience for our biggest occasion and let as many people as they want to book their tickets as late as they want 

I've given you two sellouts in the last 10 years without looking further.

Look I get that you don't like Old Trafford and wish to move the final, that's fine. I get the whole Old Traford is a dump with a poor pitch for RL.

However you keep purposely making up facts and distorting reality with regards the crowds we get to try and backup your argument and that is wrong. I mean even this new last 6 years averaging under 60k line you are using is a case in point. The first 3 of those finals wouldn't have fitted in the Etihad and included a 72,827 sellout. The last 3 included 2 Catalans finals and a season when things were far away from normal after Covid and a 45k crowd that was the lowest since the first Grand final. That crowd is hardly representative of Grand Final crowds and is such a outlier no one in their right mind would use it.

[M j M]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

73512 was not a sell out....and  unlikely to be a number we hit again 

If you wanted a ticket you could always get one from the release if tickets to kick off

2015 and 2017 were definitely sell outs, no more tickets were available. I've no idea why you're going out on a limb over something like this.

[Zilla Budgie]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

We know Man City in the past have been reluctant to allow RL games during the Football season and resisted attempts to play internationals there after we had one in the 4 Nations some years ago. Magic is a different beast as it isn't fixed but even that was actually changed to a later date when it moved to the Etihad so it would be after the Football season ended.

Oil City don't own it

[Eddie]

9 hours ago, John bird said:

I’m talking about taking the challenge cup final to Newcastle.

Sorry I thought you meant GF. 

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

MU is a toilet the final needs a 2 week lead in + rotate around various venues Barcelona being one.

 

If you want a four figure crowd, Barcelona would be a great choice. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

I've given you two sellouts in the last 10 years without looking further.

Look I get that you don't like Old Trafford and wish to move the final, that's fine. I get the whole Old Traford is a dump with a poor pitch for RL.

However you keep purposely making up facts and distorting reality with regards the crowds we get to try and backup your argument and that is wrong. I mean even this new last 6 years averaging under 60k line you are using is a case in point. The first 3 of those finals wouldn't have fitted in the Etihad and included a 72,827 sellout. The last 3 included 2 Catalans finals and a season when things were far away from normal after Covid and a 45k crowd that was the lowest since the first Grand final. That crowd is hardly representative of Grand Final crowds and is such a outlier no one in their right mind would use it.

Starting to wonder if some on here work for the RFL

You and others can bury their heads in the sand all you like ...and pledge misplaced loyalty to Man Utd as if they are doing us a favour

The trend is clear and it's downwards. Whether that is due to the rapidly crumbling OT or other reasons 

The Ethiad is lights ahead in all aspects but I suspect as always the RFL will not be brave enough to change....within 10 years the Ethiad may be too big

[fieldofclothofgold]

10 hours ago, Chris22 said:

I think we must remember that not every stadium that we may want to play the Grand Final in would want us. Would Man City want us playing their in the middle of their season? I've seen nothing to suggest so.

That's one of the reasons we have a good relationship with Manchester United playing in middle of their season . I think they once rejected the other code ru when they wanted to play a RU WC game there . Also we should have Aspirations to play in front of 70K crowds too 

[RP London]

9 hours ago, Gomersall said:

How many have to be there for you to believe it’s a sellout? The capacity of OT is listed as 74,310. As I said, X amount of seats are lost to the big screen.

And often IIRC (though I am normally a few jars in by the time we get there) there is a stage for a band in one of the corners which, again, takes away some of the capacity too. 

[Damien]

8 hours ago, Zilla Budgie said:

Oil City don't own it

They are the primary tenants and control it. They as good as own it when it comes to deciding who plays there.

[RP London]

49 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Starting to wonder if some on here work for the RFL

You and others can bury their heads in the sand all you like ...and pledge misplaced loyalty to Man Utd as if they are doing us a favour

The trend is clear and it's downwards. Whether that is due to the rapidly crumbling OT or other reasons 

The Ethiad is lights ahead in all aspects but I suspect as always the RFL will not be brave enough to change....within 10 years the Ethiad may be too big

I find your reasoning interesting.. "the trend is clear and its downwards" yes it is at the moment I agree but as with everything trends change and therefore if we see an uptick then what is the argument..

"whether that is due to the rapidly crumbling OT or other reasons" well there is the key... without knowing what the reason is this entire argument is utterly utterly pointless. 

If it has nothing to do with OT and we move it then we will not solve the problem and apart from a novelty upturn we will see the spectacle descend into nothing by pushing it into smaller and smaller venues. If it has got something to do with OT then what is it and how does it get fixed.. this may get fixed by Sir Jim and his Wembley of the North (west) and Andy Burnham will be right behind it I'm sure so if they want it, it will happen. So moving may not be the best idea.. but just wait it out and be a part of the conversation (which may then fix the pitch size issue... if he is going for a Wembley of the north I am sure he will be planning for more than just football usage - NFL etc will be in the conversation too). 

As with everything we cannot make decisions based on no factual evidence but just gut feel.. I have been to (bar covid and the one after IIRC) every grand final for the past 10 or so years and while Old Trafford is always a disappointment outside I would never say it should be moved due to it.. taking it purely on a very small set of opinions, as always, is pointless we dont know why the crowds have dropped (I hope the RFL have some idea and are doing proper surveys etc)..

debate where alternatives should be, fine, but you seem very confident you have the solution to a problem you cant even define, while also making claims that are factually incorrect to help...

[redjonn]

Personally I don't go to the grand final last few years as the stadium is so poor service/facilities wise, e.g. when the missus and other ladies have to use the men's toilets as the queues so long for the ladies, the standard food fare is poor, etc etc...even used the hospitality and yep the staff were great the facility is poor relative to other comparable stadiums.

I'd pay more for a ticket in better stadium...   OT reminds me of the slow demise of RL stadiums not caring about the average attendee and the facilities get worse and people new to the sport won't bother with the facilities whilst we idiots put up with it... when you wouldn't for other entertainment venues.

[Gomersall]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

And often IIRC (though I am normally a few jars in by the time we get there) there is a stage for a band in one of the corners which, again, takes away some of the capacity too. 

True but initially the band used to perform on a stage in the middle of the pitch. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 hours ago, redjonn said:

Personally I don't go to the grand final last few years as the stadium is so poor service/facilities wise, e.g. when the missus and other ladies have to use the men's toilets as the queues so long for the ladies, the standard food fare is poor, etc etc...even used the hospitality and yep the staff were great the facility is poor relative to other comparable stadiums.

I'd pay more for a ticket in better stadium...   OT reminds me of the slow demise of RL stadiums not caring about the average attendee and the facilities get worse and people new to the sport won't bother with the facilities whilst we idiots put up with it... when you wouldn't for other entertainment venues.

Totally agree took a client to the RLWC/Final and he could not believe what a tip it was.

Outside  of Wembley best stadiums 

Tottenham Hotspur

Arsenal 

Man City 

Everton is going to be an interesting one 

Edited May 14 by ATLANTISMAN

[EggFace]

14 hours ago, Loiner said:

No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North

Now what?

"No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North." We don't need a ground that holds 75,000, how many times over the years has it been full to capacity? The Eitihad or Newcastle would be just as good and make it a 3 o'clock kick off as well.

I like the look of Everton's new stadium as well and would love to see packed out 50,000 plus for a Challenge Cup and Super League Grand Final in the one's named above.

[DG70]

Old Trafford is no longer fit for purpose, its a liability, a health and safety hazard, they surely can't have another Grand Final there.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

14 hours ago, Loiner said:

No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North

Now what?

"No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North." We don't need a ground that holds 75,000, how many times over the years has it been full to capacity? The Eitihad or Newcastle would be just as good and make it a 3 o'clock kick off as well.

Great post

[Mumby Magic]

9 minutes ago, DG70 said:

Old Trafford is no longer fit for purpose, its a liability, a health and safety hazard, they surely can't have another Grand Final there.

Yet they have sold out Premier League games...... 

For me if its a massive decision. More than a lot on here are taking into consideration. Etihad? Where's the prestige and history there? 

London again is a no go. 

Anfield is the nearest prestige wise but doesn't seem popular amongst posters on here.

[Damien]

15 hours ago, Loiner said:

No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North

Now what?

"No-one can come up with a venue of similar size in the North." We don't need a ground that holds 75,000, how many times over the years has it been full to capacity? The Eitihad or Newcastle would be just as good and make it a 3 o'clock kick off as well.

In 25 years of the Grand Final we have had 3 crowds that would fit into St James Park. Two of which were the very first two and the other was the first post Covid final featuring Catalans.

[phiggins]

24 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Yet they have sold out Premier League games...... 

For me if its a massive decision. More than a lot on here are taking into consideration. Etihad? Where's the prestige and history there? 

London again is a no go. 

Anfield is the nearest prestige wise but doesn't seem popular amongst posters on here.

I'm not sure there's much of a decision to make. The 2024 final will be at Old Trafford, and SL will need to speak to Man Utd about what, if anything, will be done to the stadium in time for the 2025 final. If no works are planned, or if renovation is happening then the Grand Final will have to be moved for a year at least.

If that is the case, the Etihad would have to be first choice. In the absence of a big enough stadium in West Yorkshire, then Manchester remains the most viable location for a final that is determined only a week in advance.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, DG70 said:

Old Trafford is no longer fit for purpose, its a liability, a health and safety hazard, they surely can't have another Grand Final there.

if it were a health and safety hazard then HSE would have closed it down, lets not go into hyperbole to make points that dont need the hyperbole to make them.. it needs work doing to it and Man Utd and Jim Ratcliffe know that are not shying away from that.

[DG70]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

if it were a health and safety hazard then HSE would have closed it down, lets not go into hyperbole to make points that dont need the hyperbole to make them.. it needs work doing to it and Man Utd and Jim Ratcliffe know that are not shying away from that.

Don't think it's hyperbole at all pal, the facts speak for themselves, the stadium is substandard and becoming dangerously dilapidated as we saw the other day.

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, DG70 said:

Don't think it's hyperbole at all pal, the facts speak for themselves, the stadium is substandard and becoming dangerously dilapidated as we saw the other day.

ok "pal" but... 

Quote

hyperbole

(haɪpɜːʳbəli )

UNCOUNTABLE NOUN

If someone uses hyperbole, they say or write things that make something sound much more impressive than it really is.

[technical, formal]

...the hyperbole that portrays him as one of the greatest visionaries in the world. 

Synonyms: exaggeration, hype [informal], overstatement, enlargement   More Synonyms of hyperbole

So its exactly what you have done, overstatement, enlargement, exaggeration... you are right that the facts speak for themselves which are; if it were a "Health & Safety Hazard", as you put it, then HSE would have shut it down, therefore it isn't an "H&S Hazard" therefore you are exaggerating, therefore it is hyperbole.. As I said, it has some major issues, Man Utd and Jim Ratcliffe are not shying away from it and are looking at the best way to deal with it.. there is no need to be hyperbolic to make a statement that no one is denying anyway! its just a bit silly really.

Edited May 14 by RP London

[Padge]

Capacity at Old Trafford varies based on various factors, it has also changed over years and has sometimes been reduced during building works. The addition of a screen and stage in the seating area reduces capacity.

The first GF had 43,533  at Old Trafford in 1998

Capacity approximately 58,000 in 1996, approximately 68,000 in 2000, and increased to approximately 76,000 in 2006. Current capacity, without limiting factors, at Old Trafford is 75,454.

2003/4/5 were at close to stadium actual capacity as was 2006, though the first 3 at around 65.5k and the 2006 one at 72.5k. From 2006 to last year there has been 8 attendances over 70k that's 47% of finals.

Edit to add:  If you look at the 2006 to 2019(pre-covid) the percentage of games over 70k runs at 61.5%. the four games since 2019 includes  covid final, and 2 involving Catalan.

 

Edited May 14 by Padge