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Posted
3 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Wigan don't own Orrell's old ground and wasn't Robin Park given to them by the council? Regarding the soulless ground where they play, I believe they lease it from the football club. 

And that means you can completely miss the point?


Posted

I have said it previously, this season has really opened my eyes and I am amazed how some Championship clubs keep struggling on. However for those who think a simple direct pathway to super league is the answer are misguided in my opinion. Ok it gives you an goal to aim for and probably a short term bonus, but I believe SL also has some serious problems but they are not yet that obvious. 

Unless a club has a true money man behind it then success at the top level is impossible. Some championship clubs may think they could make a go of it if they got a chance, but they wouldn't last a couple of seasons and would be wiped out financially. It's not only championship clubs but a couple of SL clubs are also living on borrowed time by not having a rich backer.

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Posted
Just now, Agbrigg said:

I have said it previously, this season has really opened my eyes and I am amazed how some Championship clubs keep struggling on. However for those who think a simple direct pathway to super league is the answer are misguided in my opinion. Ok it gives you an goal to aim for and probably a short term bonus, but I believe SL also has some serious problems but they are not yet that obvious. 

Unless a club has a true money man behind it then success at the top level is impossible. Some championship clubs may think they could make a go of it if they got a chance, but they wouldn't last a couple of seasons and would be wiped out financially. It's not only championship clubs but a couple of SL clubs are also living on borrowed time by not having a rich backer.

Absolutely. 

The difference between a Championship club with maybe a handful of full time employees, if any, vs a Super League club with knocking on for 100+ across the full swathe of facilities, teams, coaching, and organisational stuff like the club shop is, genuinely, eye opening. It's not the simple jump some see it as, and it could cripple a club to do it.

  • Like 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Griff said:

So why would a breakaway league be better?

Because it would be cut adrift from the pro game which can get on without the financial black hole of the lower leagues dragging it down.

While the breakaway league keeps everything the purists want,  promotion/relegation, equal central TV money funding (presumably none), more relaxed minimum stadium standards, and an open shop approach open to any village no matter how podunk it is that wants to put a team in.

 

 

 

Posted

It’s interesting that Halifax haven’t stated, unless I’ve missed it, how much they owe and how much they need urgently. 

For HMRC to have turned down their request for a time to pay schedule is worrying as it could indicate: -

  • They owe a significant amount to HMRC
  • They have a plan already in place
  • They have defaulted on a previous plan
  • Their proposal doesn’t stack up for whatever reason e.g. too long a period; other creditors etc.

When you consider they haven’t paid any rent for a while; their most expensive player is paid by specific sponsors and they clearly owe HMRC and the other players a significant sum this is a massive concern for their future.

I don’t know how they get out of this mess, especially with them only sharing limited information, but if they do then the current management need to seriously reconsider how they run the club in the future because whatever they have done in the last year or so clearly isn’t sustainable. 

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

They prioritise spending in other areas to make the whole club better. Facilities, media, marketing, hospitality, other events, player development and so on. This will expand income streams allowing clubs to spend more, and with a stronger base. 

I'm fairness mate, Fax have a lot of the above. The shay's a great venue for watching RL and their social media stuff is one of the better ones in RL. 

Firstly I hope Fax get sorted as this would be a bitter bitter blow to the sport. 

I think it's a cocktail of things of why RL in general is on this mess. 

The sky deals gone down  from around £40m to £20m. That coincides with wages having to go up. Now don't get me wrong each club is guilty of throwing stupid money at certain players who then turn out to be awful. But I don't think it's as simple of "just pay them less" in the champ with out other consequences. I'll take Sheffield as an example. They've not had a week off since January. So that's no weekend with their families. No holidays. All while working throughout the week.  You'd want reasonably paying to make it worthwhile. If the wages suddenly drop off the cliff how many would really want to sign up for it? 

Crowds are also dropping. Ticket prices need looking at it as £20 is far too much for second level RL. We need to look at doing something similar to football where all clubs agree a cap to ticket prices. 

Finally I do believe the constantly changing of structures does affect attendances. The apathy traditional fans must have, then throw in trying to explain to floating sports fan that we've no chance of promotion despite doing well in the league or no chance of being relegated when bottom of the league. 

Edited by Bull Mania
  • Like 8
Posted
36 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Wigan don't own Orrell's old ground and wasn't Robin Park given to them by the council? Regarding the soulless ground where they play, I believe they lease it from the football club. 

Wigan do own the Orrell ground and if that status has changed legally then that is only due to the takeover of Mike Danson. Indeed it is going to become a training centre for Wigans women's teams (plus Wigan Athletic too).

Robin Park was not just given by the council. It is still used by athletics and Wigan Rugby have ploughed an awful lot of money into it. It is a mutual relationship and the council have certainly benefitted too.

Mike Danson owns the stadium and he is certainly sided more towards rugby than the football. Thats why we have had academy games, women's games and even Latics had to move their game for the WCC. This was unimaginable previously. Kris Radlinski practically runs the place.

Hope that clears things up.

  • Like 1
Posted
27 minutes ago, KiwiRL said:

Because it would be cut adrift from the pro game which can get on without the financial black hole of the lower leagues dragging it down.

While the breakaway league keeps everything the purists want,  promotion/relegation, equal central TV money funding (presumably none), more relaxed minimum stadium standards, and an open shop approach open to any village no matter how podunk it is that wants to put a team in.

 

 

 

That's pretty much exactly the situation that exists now, especially with the grading system in place. 

(Except that the championship/L1 clubs are resistant to new teams entering their structure - either because they're too close or too far away!)

Posted

Rugby league daily reporting on FB of a potential 12 point penalty for fax... Not seen this anywhere and not sure what it would be for? If they went into liquidation then a points deduction wouldn't even come into play would it? 

Posted
18 minutes ago, Damien said:

Wigan do own the Orrell ground and if that status has changed legally then that is only due to the takeover of Mike Danson. Indeed it is going to become a training centre for Wigans women's teams (plus Wigan Athletic too).

Robin Park was not just given by the council. It is still used by athletics and Wigan Rugby have ploughed an awful lot of money into it. It is a mutual relationship and the council have certainly benefitted too.

Mike Danson owns the stadium and he is certainly sided more towards rugby than the football. Thats why we have had academy games, women's games and even Latics had to move their game for the WCC. This was unimaginable previously. Kris Radlinski practically runs the place.

Hope that clears things up.

It sure does. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Griff said:

So why would a breakaway league be better?

  Teams wouldn't go bust chasing the golden ticket of Super League.No need to overspend on players wages which has led to financial trouble.Bradford Featherstone Widnes York Fax Whitehaven and Workington  plus others have been put at risk trying to get to SL..However the players deserve every penny they earn and the wage bill for players should be no less than 70% of the clubs income.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

I fear that there is no strategy or plan. Obviously, there ought to be - and it ought to be published. L1 has had a review but I don't think the outcome was made public. As usual, the game will be reactive rather than setting the agenda.

Even SL lacks a plan, really. 

On the field, isn't it the case that the plan for Championship/L1 is to return to a 3×8 structure following a mid-season split? Thus the adding of a new team to bring up the right numbers.

There are advantages to this on the competitiveness front, although Superleague ultimately gave up on the 8s because only having the late summer fixtures set at short notice was commercially negative.

Perhaps Ch/L1 with smaller corporate sales and proportionately more walk-up fans would be less affected?

It's an off-field plan that's missing. How do we make this level more financially secure? It seems to me that some sort of salary cap based around part-time operations is the obvious way forward, but that would mean clubs and fans finally accepting what's been true for nearly 30 years now, that Superleague and the level below it are essentially separate structures. Perhaps understandably, some just won't accept that.

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Posted
14 minutes ago, Neutralfan7 said:

Rugby league daily reporting on FB of a potential 12 point penalty for fax... Not seen this anywhere and not sure what it would be for? If they went into liquidation then a points deduction wouldn't even come into play would it? 

Who are Rugby League Daily?

Posted
29 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Who are Rugby League Daily?

It wouldn't be another Mick Gledhill account would it where opinions are presented as pseudo facts?

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Posted

There needs something doing to prevent club administrators from killing clubs with thousands of fans because of poor management.

People have mentioned that having a rich benefactor is paramount. On the contrary, I feel like it is this benefactor/owner structure which has often made clubs complacent and without accountability, whilst leaving the club susceptible to an individual who will hold their own personal best interest in front of the best interests of the club.

Clubs need to become sustainable from their own operations. If a benefactor/s becomes available, then that is an added bonus.

  • Like 1
Posted
49 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

...

It's an off-field plan that's missing. How do we make this level more financially secure? It seems to me that some sort of salary cap based around part-time operations is the obvious way forward, but that would mean clubs and fans finally accepting what's been true for nearly 30 years now, that Superleague and the level below it are essentially separate structures. Perhaps understandably, some just won't accept that.

Thanks, and I agree that there needs to be a clarity about whether the Championship is a vehicle for potential SL clubs or, as you say, a comp that is cut off completely and serves a different purpose.

My issue is that many clubs/fans won't accept the latter and, because of that, SL/IMG are still selling them the (untenable) line that the Championship is a place to build a future SL club. I feel pretty sure that's not going to be possible absent a SL club imploding.

So, is the Championship a place to build a SL club (or rebuild your business ops if you're a club who gets demoted)? Or is it a place for traditional semi-pro clubs to gradually downscale their ops to the point they provide a sustainable comp but at a much lower quality of rugby. Is such a comp even wanted?

I'm not sure that the status quo - a bit of one and the other with nobody prepared to accept there's a problem - will survive for much longer. 

Posted
15 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Thanks, and I agree that there needs to be a clarity about whether the Championship is a vehicle for potential SL clubs or, as you say, a comp that is cut off completely and serves a different purpose.

My issue is that many clubs/fans won't accept the latter and, because of that, SL/IMG are still selling them the (untenable) line that the Championship is a place to build a future SL club. I feel pretty sure that's not going to be possible absent a SL club imploding.

So, is the Championship a place to build a SL club (or rebuild your business ops if you're a club who gets demoted)? Or is it a place for traditional semi-pro clubs to gradually downscale their ops to the point they provide a sustainable comp but at a much lower quality of rugby. Is such a comp even wanted?

I'm not sure that the status quo - a bit of one and the other with nobody prepared to accept there's a problem - will survive for much longer. 

Agreed. Those are exactly the questions the game's leaders should be asking - and answering definitively. 

But it's hard. And to be fair to the RFL, rugby league isn't the only sport struggling with those sorts of questions. Cricket for instance is also struggling to reimagine the professional game while keeping the traditional counties on board.

But we do seem closer to the point of calamity than others sports.

Posted
15 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

There needs something doing to prevent club administrators from killing clubs with thousands of fans because of poor management.

People have mentioned that having a rich benefactor is paramount. On the contrary, I feel like it is this benefactor/owner structure which has often made clubs complacent and without accountability, whilst leaving the club susceptible to an individual who will hold their own personal best interest in front of the best interests of the club.

Clubs need to become sustainable from their own operations. If a benefactor/s becomes available, then that is an added bonus.

I'm not sure anyone has said one is paramount. It is though what Halifax need now to get them out of the hole they are in because 1k loans aren't doing it. I do agree with the gist of what you are saying and clubs need to be sustainable. At a Championship and L1 level that should absolutely be the goal and the way clubs operate. Other clubs can do it and not every club needs to be a SL club. Spending big money on has beens certainly isn't what it should be about.

I do think though that it is very unlikely for clubs like Halifax to do a Leigh or Hull KR without someone ploughing in money. Never mind the on field stuff but it takes investment to do all of the off field stuff right to that level. And that should be fine, the more well run clubs with assets, along the lines of Batley, the better.

  • Like 2
Posted
2 hours ago, KiwiRL said:

Because it would be cut adrift from the pro game which can get on without the financial black hole of the lower leagues dragging it down.

While the breakaway league keeps everything the purists want,  promotion/relegation, equal central TV money funding (presumably none), more relaxed minimum stadium standards, and an open shop approach open to any village no matter how podunk it is that wants to put a team in.

 

 

 

OK fella.  Good luck with that.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

Posted
1 hour ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Teams wouldn't go bust chasing the golden ticket of Super League.No need to overspend on players wages which has led to financial trouble.Bradford Featherstone Widnes York Fax Whitehaven and Workington  plus others have been put at risk trying to get to SL..However the players deserve every penny they earn and the wage bill for players should be no less than 70% of the clubs income.

You've clearly no idea how much expenditure clubs have which is not player's wages.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

Posted
4 hours ago, Neutralfan7 said:

Have fax stated how much they need to make? 

No and that is the worrying thing. A couple of weeks ago or so the stand in chairman put out a message painting a bright future when infact he was lying about what was going on, I am not sure at this point how anyone can trust a word that comes out of what remains of our boards mouths.

4 hours ago, Neutralfan7 said:

Thanks mate, hope that's not what they owe early next week as that's a big ask!

That 30k is just a Go Fund Me page that was set up independantly of the club. By all accounts the situation is much graver than that and the amount is a lot more than that but its delaying the inevitable.

2 hours ago, LeeF said:

It’s interesting that Halifax haven’t stated, unless I’ve missed it, how much they owe and how much they need urgently. 

For HMRC to have turned down their request for a time to pay schedule is worrying as it could indicate: -

  • They owe a significant amount to HMRC
  • They have a plan already in place
  • They have defaulted on a previous plan
  • Their proposal doesn’t stack up for whatever reason e.g. too long a period; other creditors etc.

When you consider they haven’t paid any rent for a while; their most expensive player is paid by specific sponsors and they clearly owe HMRC and the other players a significant sum this is a massive concern for their future.

I don’t know how they get out of this mess, especially with them only sharing limited information, but if they do then the current management need to seriously reconsider how they run the club in the future because whatever they have done in the last year or so clearly isn’t sustainable. 

LeeF sums it up nicely here. HMRC not granting the extension simply means enough is enough and they want this over and done with as soon as possible so they can move on to the next thing. The fact that they are begging people to lend them 1k or more as loans is a disgrace. They know full well those people would never get their money back what a total bunch of charlatans.

Personally I see the only way forward at this point is to wind up the club, take the admin hit this season and if it is enough to relegate us then so be it but as long as it means all the current board are gone and no longer have anything to do with the club can only be a good thing. Next thing speaking to other local clubs about playing at a ground that we can afford to play at, that will never happen at the Shay where the council does not allow either team to make any money on anything other than attendance.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

No and that is the worrying thing. A couple of weeks ago or so the stand in chairman put out a message painting a bright future when infact he was lying about what was going on, I am not sure at this point how anyone can trust a word that comes out of what remains of our boards mouths.

That 30k is just a Go Fund Me page that was set up independantly of the club. By all accounts the situation is much graver than that and the amount is a lot more than that but its delaying the inevitable.

LeeF sums it up nicely here. HMRC not granting the extension simply means enough is enough and they want this over and done with as soon as possible so they can move on to the next thing. The fact that they are begging people to lend them 1k or more as loans is a disgrace. They know full well those people would never get their money back what a total bunch of charlatans.

Personally I see the only way forward at this point is to wind up the club, take the admin hit this season and if it is enough to relegate us then so be it but as long as it means all the current board are gone and no longer have anything to do with the club can only be a good thing. Next thing speaking to other local clubs about playing at a ground that we can afford to play at, that will never happen at the Shay where the council does not allow either team to make any money on anything other than attendance.

Fans would be better putting up their money aside and being part of any phoenix club. I really do think with those kind of debts and HMRC pressure that is the likely outcome. Coldly speaking as a business decision its also the best outcome, short of a big benefactor, and I do have every sympathy with creditors that don't get paid while I say that.

Edited by Damien
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