Siva Tau ( Haka and other versions) time to ban them?

[Expatknight]

10 hours ago, Griff said:

Me? I'm no dancer.

This would be better

[StandOffHalf]

23 minutes ago, Damien said:

For every person that thinks it may be performative or overly aggressive I daresay there are several more who love to see it and think it adds to the game and occasion. Fans and opposition players alike seem to love it.

Yeah, I can see both sides, and certainly find it a good way to up anticipation/excitement.

[StandOffHalf]

2 minutes ago, Expatknight said:

This would be better

It might be seen as a bit, erm, homophobic...

[Wakefield Ram]

11 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

Looks like a Monty Python sketch compared to the ferocious, tightly choreographed numbers they put on now...

Maybe some of the greatest rugby players in the amateur era didn't have time to practice their haka. 

[StandOffHalf]

8 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Maybe some of the greatest rugby players in the amateur era didn't have time to practice their haka. 

They obviously wouldn't have had a cultural officer or a choreographer if, say, there were only a couple of Maori or Islander players in the squad (I'm speaking of the ABs here).

It was much more delineated in the past between Pakeha and Polynesian. Nowadays, most schools would practice the Haka. It might even be on the curriculum - I'd have to check.

Edited October 29, 2024 by StandOffHalf

[Wakefield Ram]

5 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

They obviously wouldn't have had a cultural officer or a choreographer if, say, there were only a couple of Maori or Islander players in the squad (I'm speaking of the ABs here).

It was much more delineated in the past between Pakeha and Polynesian. Nowadays, most schools would practice the Haka. It might even be on the curriculum - I'd have to check.

There were no "cultural officers" in those days, these great players were farmers, teachers etc.. who didn't have time to practice their hakas

[Expatknight]

11 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

They obviously wouldn't have had a cultural officer or a choreographer if, say, there were only a couple of Maori or Islander players in the squad (I'm speaking of the ABs here).

It was much more delineated in the past between Pakeha and Polynesian. Nowadays, most schools would practice the Haka. It might even be on the curriculum - I'd have to check.

I don’t think Eddie Waring was overly impressed with , in his words “ all that malarkey”  , god bless him.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

They obviously wouldn't have had a cultural officer or a choreographer if, say, there were only a couple of Maori or Islander players in the squad (I'm speaking of the ABs here).

It was much more delineated in the past between Pakeha and Polynesian. Nowadays, most schools would practice the Haka. It might even be on the curriculum - I'd have to check.

Many schools have their own hakas.

[up the robins]

I reckon a more English response these days would be turn round at the end of the performance, bend over and let them kick us up the bottom  and then turn back and apologise for any damage our distant relatives did to there people.

On a serious note I love the cultural war dances, think they are great spectacle.

Edited October 29, 2024 by up the robins

[sam4731]

I wonder how many opposition players have ever had any bad feelings towards any of these dances. Are some people just being armchair spectators?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

There were no "cultural officers" in those days, these great players were farmers, teachers etc.. who didn't have time to practice their hakas

Jolly amateurs playing for the love of the game. Pure Corinthian spirit, alive and well.

You love to see it.

Rugby was ruined when money got involved.

[Father Gascoigne]

8 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

I wonder how many opposition players have ever had any bad feelings towards any of these dances. Are some people just being armchair spectators?

The international scene in the Pacific at least makes that less likely. I can't envisage Cleary seething with animosity while watching Luai leading Samoa's war dance. So many internationals know each other well. Origin is a bit different as there are standards that players have to live up to. 

I do get the impression that Kangaroos players are somewhat desensitised to it by now, and that it mostly serves as a show for the crowd/broadcast viewers. 

[Expatknight]

14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Jolly amateurs playing for the love of the game. Pure Corinthian spirit, alive and well.

You love to see it.

Rugby was ruined when money got involved.

As has been the case with most ‘professional’ sports sadly.

[daz39]

Grow up!!

Stuff like that is now a highlight of International rugby league for some now the agression has been taken away from the field.

Some people go to internationals just to see stuff like that, i was at the Tonga v Samoa world cup game at Warrington a few years back and the pre-match stuff was one of the most spine-tingling stuff i've ever seen in my time watching the sport.

Players know it's going to happen and know they have to restrain themselves but also know they can push it to the limit for maximum impact.

Let folk have some enjoyment in their pastime choices!

[David Shepherd]

15 hours ago, Bearman said:

When does a cultural ritual cross the line.

Yesterday the Samoan team performed their Siva Tau and I am sure the crowd enjoyed the spectacle.

The other team is expected to respect the ritual as it is THEIR culture.

However, did Gordon Chan Kum (GCK) cross the line by getting so close to Lewis ( ML) that contact with their heads resulted. ( I'm not saying who caused the head clash as because they were so close that either could have butted the other one..but, it GCk was that came so close that the incident occurred.)

I know it was just a tap but I'm sure that in a court of law or had it happened during the game it could be seen as an offence.

Surely it  behoves that guest person performing his ritual to make sure he does not put his host in the position where he is uncomfortable?

I don't want to be a killjoy but  I do feel that the whole palaver gives the " attacking" players a fillip whilst the "defenders " have to be passive. ( of course when the " defenders" have their own version they have the opportunity to do the same to the other lot. But the N. Hemisphere teams do not have their chance,,, BTW I am old enough to remember when EVEN the Australian RL team used to do a version of the Haka).

Am I alone in thinking that this incident was beyond the pale?

 At the very least the coaches need to have a word

No

[sentoffagain2]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Jolly amateurs playing for the love of the game. Pure Corinthian spirit, alive and well.

You love to see it.

Rugby was ruined when money got involved.

  We would still be playing the other code if money had not been involved.That's why we broke away to pay players who usually worked Saturdays.I agree with the rest of your post.

[Copa]

It’s fantastic. There are quite a few Tongans in my street and I’ve seen them in the park practicing their version with kids of all ages learning and joining in.

At my local suburban rugby league ground a young Maori guy made his debut for a particular team earlier this year and his father did a haka on his own at the end of the match for his son to show how proud he was of his debut.

It’s culture from Australia’s neighbourhood and we’re used to seeing it in sports. It’s entirely normal and acceptable.

We are so lucky in rugby league to be exposed to such diversity.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Copa

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Copa said:

It’s fantastic. There are quite a few Tongans in my street and I’ve seen them in the park practicing their version with kids of all ages learning and joining in.

At my local suburban rugby league ground a young Maori guy made his debut for a particular team earlier this year and his father did a haka on his own at the end of the match for his son to show how proud he was of his debut.

It’s culture from Australia’s neighbourhood and we’re used to seeing it in sports. It’s entirely normal and acceptable.

We are so lucky in rugby league to be exposed to such diversity.

Great post. You only have to watch the Pacific Championships to see that diversity and its absolutely fantastic. It adds so much to the game.

[17 stone giant]

The sailors hornpipe gets my vote for our 'haka'.

Without our proud naval heritage we wouldn't ever have visited the lands of the teams we're now playing.

Some of those moves could be tricky with studs on a grass pitch, so I would recommend a change of footwear during the build up.

[The 4 of Us]

3 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It might be seen as a bit, erm, homophobic...

It’s certainly of its age. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

On a list of all the priorities and issues facing international rugby league it has to rate quite low you would think?

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, daz39 said:

Grow up!!

Stuff like that is now a highlight of International rugby league for some now the agression has been taken away from the field.

Some people go to internationals just to see stuff like that, i was at the Tonga v Samoa world cup game at Warrington a few years back and the pre-match stuff was one of the most spine-tingling stuff i've ever seen in my time watching the sport.

Players know it's going to happen and know they have to restrain themselves but also know they can push it to the limit for maximum impact.

Let folk have some enjoyment in their pastime choices!

Not sure why you are saying 'grow up', it seems to have been a sensible and adult discussion so far.

Anyway, one of the points being made is that the aggression is performative and it has moved from being a cultural element to being about two groups of players goading each other.

If you are correct in saying that "players know it's going to happen and know they have to restrain themselves but also know they can push it to the limit for maximum impact" (and I think you are), then surely this is the definition of performative - all a bit WWE for me.

[DI Keith Fowler]

4 hours ago, Wakefield Ram said:

There were no "cultural officers" in those days, these great players were farmers, teachers etc.. who didn't have time to practice their hakas

Teachers and farmers didn't have time? Teachers who get twice as much holidays and farmers who do all their work by 9am and spend the rest of the day dynamiting moles?

If we put the clocks back two hours the farmers would have an extra hour to practice their hakas maybe. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Not sure why you are saying 'grow up', it seems to have been a sensible and adult discussion so far.

Anyway, one of the points being made is that the aggression is performative and it has moved from being a cultural element to being about two groups of players goading each other.

If you are correct in saying that "players know it's going to happen and know they have to restrain themselves but also know they can push it to the limit for maximum impact" (and I think you are), then surely this is the definition of performative - all a bit WWE for me.

I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Isn't this all performative and always has been? 

New Zealand.com says this about the Haka:

Traditionally, haka was a customary way to welcome visiting tribes, but it also served to invigorate warriors as they headed into battle. It was a show of physical prowess but also an embodiment of cultural pride, strength, and unity.

 

I know it was a different dance, but I think the one the other day met the brief of that. 

it's absolutely performative, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

In terms of managing these though, I think there is a level of control that's needed - you don't want, and can't really have contact every time, and these have been managed differently over the years, but ai think we are fine just now.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Isn't this all performative and always has been? 

New Zealand.com says this about the Haka:

Traditionally, haka was a customary way to welcome visiting tribes, but it also served to invigorate warriors as they headed into battle. It was a show of physical prowess but also an embodiment of cultural pride, strength, and unity.

 

I know it was a different dance, but I think the one the other day met the brief of that. 

it's absolutely performative, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

In terms of managing these though, I think there is a level of control that's needed - you don't want, and can't really have contact every time, and these have been managed differently over the years, but ai think we are fine just now.

Sure, I just don't like it when they get to the point where they are pushing foreheads into each other.  I think when they get to that point they have gone past mutual respect and into intimidation.

Just a personal opinion.