Key differences between Aus and British sides

[Tonka]

To my eye. With the Aussie teams:

1. Forwards attacking the line in groups with short passes to unlock the defences
2. Half-backs attacking the line, particularly spaces around the rucks
3. Defences that can easily deal with the systems the UK sides were deploying
[4. I did sense greater fitness and physicality in the Aus teams, but I couldn't tell how much was because they were in their comfort zone because of 1 - 3]

English teams:

In attack - half backs too willing to play 5 - 10 metres back from the defensive line. Lots of long passes trying to pick up waves of strike runners. Forward play around the ruck too one out. The Aussie defences reading it far too easily - they weren't stretched up the middle and were used to dealing with this on the fringes.

The question is:

Do British sides (a) forget about this weekend and just do what they need to win SL (b )try and develop systems that can counter the Aussie sides.

If (b ), I don't think we should be trying to beat them at their own game. By the time we master it, they will be 10 years ahead again.

Any ideas anyone?

I have a few but they might be rubbish!

[Griff9of13]

To my eye. With the Aussie teams:

1. Forwards attacking the line groups with short passes to unlock the defences

2. Half-backs attacking the line, particularly spaces around the rucks

3. Defences that can easily deal with the systems the UK sides were deploying

[4. I did sense greater fitness and physicality in the Aus teams, but I couldn't tell how much was because they were in their comfort zone because of 1 - 3]

English teams:

In attack - half backs too willing to play 5 - 10 metres back from the defensive line. Lots of long passes trying to pick up waves of strike runners. Forward play around the Rick too one out. The Aussie defences reading it far too easily - they weren't stretched up the middle and were used to dealing with this on the fringes.

The question is:

Do British sides (a) forget about this weekend and just do what they need to win SL (b )try and develop systems that can counter the Aussie sides.

If (b ), I don't think we should be trying to beat them at their own game. By the time we master it, they will be 10 years ahead again.

Any ideas anyone?

I have a few but they might be rubbish!

 

That, in a nutshell, is where we have been going wrong since 1982. Trying to play catchup is impossible. Our coaches need to develop a style of play to suit our strengths. 

[GeordieSaint]

That, in a nutshell, is where we have been going wrong since 1982. Trying to play catchup is impossible. Our coaches need to develop a style of play to suit our strengths.

Our strengths is forward play along with the offload and the Aussies have just battered us at that game... something needs to change.

[Farmduck]

Do British sides (a) forget about this weekend and just do what they need to win SL (b )try and develop systems that can counter the Aussie sides.

 

Maguire's Wigan was the closest I've seen to an NRL team, in style. Most of that was just structure and discipline. I think he had a better top 13 than any Brit team on this weekend though.

[Dave T]

I think unfortunately we had a freak series. Look at some of the crazy injuries and combinations in the spines of the UK teams.

Im not one for knee jerk reactions, but i do wonder whether we need to invest more in specialist coaching. Most young kids games consist of giving it to the big and fast kids to power through. If the Aussies get injuries at halfback they bring in a young lad who has some skill and guile.

I do also think that maybe we need to take these games a touch more seriously. Do we align our seasons better, do we have a couple of weeks specific training for these games or should it stay as week 3 of our season.

Ultimately though we just crack on, being the best we can and wecwill pick up the odd wun. We grow from there.

[Farmduck]

I think unfortunately we had a freak series. Look at some of the crazy injuries and combinations in the spines of the UK teams.

Im not one for knee jerk reactions, but i do wonder whether we need to invest more in specialist coaching. Most young kids games consist of giving it to the big and fast kids to power through. If the Aussies get injuries at halfback they bring in a young lad who has some skill and guile.

I do also think that maybe we need to take these games a touch more seriously. Do we align our seasons better, do we have a couple of weeks specific training for these games or should it stay as week 3 of our season.

Ultimately though we just crack on, being the best we can and wecwill pick up the odd wun. We grow from there.

 

Those 2 Nikorima bros have been playing in the Qld Cup which is very tough comp with a fair bit of travelling - Mackay, Townsville, PNG, Cairns. I think it's a much better preparation than some English setups. Players like Widdop, Trent Hodkinson, Kyle Feldt, Ethan Lowe and Cherry Evans all played full seasons in lower grade while training with the NRL squads on their way up.

 

Players like Latrell Mitchell who go straight from 20s to NRL are very rare.

[Tonka]

I'd say we had a particularly bad series rather than a freak one.  All teams had good players out.  But I don't think they would have made much difference - the whole style of play was different.

 

I agree that the key has to be around the ruck area. The forwards have to start either getting passes away in contact or short passes away before contact to weaken the opposition up the middle.

 

Alex Walmsley was a great example of where we went wrong.  Charged in at 100 mph: Jon Wilkin is right, you can't fault the effort.  But then got sat on his ar*e by Napa on the next play.  You can't bully Australian teams up the middle, it has to be something more subtle.

[DoubleD]

Totally agree with the comments about the half backs and fitness, I must admit I was surprised their fitness was that superior

[GeordieSaint]

Im not one for knee jerk reactions, but i do wonder whether we need to invest more in specialist coaching. Most young kids games consist of giving it to the big and fast kids to power through. If the Aussies get injuries at halfback they bring in a young lad who has some skill and guile.

I do also think that maybe we need to take these games a touch more seriously. Do we align our seasons better, do we have a couple of weeks specific training for these games or should it stay as week 3 of our season.

Agree on the specialist coaching; I personally feel the skill levels in England have fallen along with creativity... I think we are over coaching set plays and removing a player's ability to play what is in front of them. More focus on key core skills is vital to improvement.

I am also a bit sick of Saints playing people out of position. Cunningham prefers to play the likes of Wilkin and LMS at standoff/centre instead of giving specialists like Fages and Wellington opportunities. The Roosters halves were 19/20 respectively on Friday night with Nikorima on debut. I was also pleased to see McDermott play Lilley in the halves last night as well. We (especially Saints) need more of this instead of relying poor experienced players out of position.

I think your final point is all about professionalism. We need to evolve and adapt much quicker than we are in this country... we are glacial in comparison to the Southern Hemisphere. Granted this seems to a British issue in most team sports but it is something we need focus on backed up by a credible, coherent and all encompassing structure, which will benefit the whole game and not just the incomes of some club chairmen.

[Mark S]

The biggest difference is that NRL teams don't make silly mistakes when it matters. The only reason Leeds were still in it at half time was down to the mistakes NQC made, when they tidied things up they smashed Leeds.

Learn to respect the ball much much more and the rest will follow.

I also noticed that NRL players seem to be a lot stronger and are now just muscle men, SL seems obsessed with bulk rather than strength and stamina.

[Saint Toppy]

Im not one for knee jerk reactions, but i do wonder whether we need to invest more in specialist coaching. Most young kids games consist of giving it to the big and fast kids to power through. If the Aussies get injuries at halfback they bring in a young lad who has some skill and guile.

 

This is similar to what Sean Long & Tommy Martyn alluded to recently at a fans forum meeting at Saints. They pretty much said we're teaching our youngsters to play to rigid structures & patterns, creating great athletes but ones without technical skill or the ability (and confidence) to think for themselves. In essence we're churning out robots.

Personally I think its really sad that our coaches get the players spending more time practicing their wrestling techniques so they can dominate and slow down the tackle than they do practicing actual tackling techniques that put the player down in the 1st place.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

Each of the three English teams had weak links that they can hide when competing against other Super League sides.  Owens, Handley and Gildart, to just name one from each team, couldn't cut it that level.  Aussies took full advantage of these Achilles heels.

[Tonka]

I really think the issue is much, much wider than silly mistakes or weak links in teams - and I say that to be constructive rather than undermine those points.  I think both of those things were factors but to me they were almost playing different sports at times.  Or certainly playing the same sport in a vastly different way. 

 

The British teams look a bit WW1 cannon-fodder, manfully but naively charging straight at their opponents' machine guns with bayonets.

[Davo5]

I think its a case of falling standards among our leading sides,in Leeds case it's a time of transition after a period of dominance,Wigan have been slowly going backwards since the McGuire days who's side would comfortably beat this present one and Saints are just plain awful.

[GeordieSaint]

This is similar to what Sean Long & Tommy Martyn alluded to recently at a fans forum meeting at Saints. They pretty much said we're teaching our youngsters to play to rigid structures & patterns, creating great athletes but ones without technical skill or the ability (and confidence) to think for themselves. In essence we're churning out robots. Personally I think its really sad that our coaches get the players spending more time practicing their wrestling techniques so they can dominate and slow down the tackle than they do practicing actual tackling techniques that put the player down in the 1st place.

Then aren't Long and Co part of the problem? Long is assistant coach at Saints... surely he has some influence over the coaching across the club?

[Gates1]

I dont watch the NRL so based on the 3 games this weekend I think the primary differance is the ability to defend, especailly out wide (although what happens out wide is often dictated from the defensive line as a whole). 

 

We will probably see an average of 5 or so tries a game this weekend in superleague scored by a winger who is left with a simple walkover as a result of the defensive line been stretched (without the attackers doing anything spectacular, maybe just a few quick play the balls) or simple defensive misreads/missed tackles.  How many times did this happen against the Aussies? and this was our top teams trying to create these opportunities. 

 

The NRL teams defensive structure is a completely differant level to ours.  They dont have players on the fringes flying in to trying and solve things, misreading plays, getting caught out of position or missing simple tackles.  The outside men cover their opponents continually and are enabled to do so because if help is needed it arrives from inside very quickly.

 

Additionally their defensive line resets very quickly and manages to be continually robust even when reseting quickly.  Thus the effectiveness of offloads and quick play the balls like those Leeds threw at the Cowboys in the 1st quarter last night is much reduced.  Last night Leeds would have been 18 - 0 up against any SL team at the point the Cowboys scored their 1st try, yet they had failed to score.

 

Lets face it, all the SL clubs threw pretty basic plays at the Aussies, why?  Because thats all they normally need to do to break defenses.  Improve how we defend and and by neccesasity our teams will improve how they attack. 

[terrywebbisgod]

I think its a case of falling standards among our leading sides,in Leeds case it's a time of transition after a period of dominance,Wigan have been slowly going backwards since the McGuire days who's side would comfortably beat this present one and Saints are just plain awful.

Nail hit square on.

[chuffer]

I dont watch the NRL so based on the 3 games this weekend I think the primary differance is the ability to defend, especailly out wide (although what happens out wide is often dictated from the defensive line as a whole). 

 

We will probably see an average of 5 or so tries a game this weekend in superleague scored by a winger who is left with a simple walkover as a result of the defensive line been stretched (without the attackers doing anything spectacular, maybe just a few quick play the balls) or simple defensive misreads/missed tackles.  How many times did this happen against the Aussies? and this was our top teams trying to create these opportunities. 

 

The NRL teams defensive structure is a completely differant level to ours.  They dont have players on the fringes flying in to trying and solve things, misreading plays, getting caught out of position or missing simple tackles.  The outside men cover their opponents continually and are enabled to do so because if help is needed it arrives from inside very quickly.

 

Additionally their defensive line resets very quickly and manages to be continually robust even when reseting quickly.  Thus the effectiveness of offloads and quick play the balls like those Leeds threw at the Cowboys in the 1st quarter last night is much reduced.  Last night Leeds would have been 18 - 0 up against any SL team at the point the Cowboys scored their 1st try, yet they had failed to score.

 

Lets face it, all the SL clubs threw pretty basic plays at the Aussies, why?  Because thats all they normally need to do to break defenses.  Improve how we defend and and by neccesasity our teams will improve how they attack. 

 

agree totally....perhaps it was fatigue but there were times in the 3 games when the defensive line speed was non-existent....leeds matched them for 40mins (though perhaps the wind was a factor) with defensive intensity and the scoreline reflected that.....people say "the cowboys were making mistakes, when they sorted that out they were dominant"....yes but you have to ask why they were initially making mistakes (because leeds were in their faces) and why they later "tightened it up" (because leeds defence backed off/tired and people started ball watching) ....saints did the latter for a full 80 mins and got slaughtered......wigan started off well but couldn't keep it up (so to speak).....perhaps it's a fitness/stamina thing?

[Gates1]

agree totally....perhaps it was fatigue but there were times in the 3 games when the defensive line speed was non-existent....leeds matched them for 40mins (though perhaps the wind was a factor) with defensive intensity and the scoreline reflected that.....people say "the cowboys were making mistakes, when they sorted that out they were dominant"....yes but you have to ask why they were initially making mistakes (because leeds were in their faces) and why they later "tightened it up" (because leeds defence backed off/tired and people started ball watching) ....saints did the latter for a full 80 mins and got slaughtered......wigan started off well but couldn't keep it up (so to speak).....perhaps it's a fitness/stamina thing?

Fitness certainly looked to be a key factor. As you say the NRL forwards seemed to be able to keep working effectively throughout the game. That said all are proffesional athletes so their is no real reason for the NRL teams to be that much fitter?

I suppose range of fitness is also key too though, in that if you have a couple of players lacking fitness the defensive line moves at their speed and not the other 11 players or becomes fractured.

[Kris]

Leeds in transition, Saints are awful and Wigan have gone backwards

 

Cannot disagree with any of that, Leeds were clearly physically smaller all round than the NQC and as others have noted above they would not throw in boys against men until they were physically ready no matter how good they were its just not done anymore down under unless there are lengthy injury lists or bare squads like the Titans

 

Without Roby and his go forward Saints are tosh, clearly do not have a game plan and not sure what they expected on Friday but I think Kieron will be happy with the limited success of his battering rams playing straight up rugby rather than trying to introduce any skill onto his pack at all

 

I think he should get a Director of rugby in to give him a hand because if hes not careful he will be supporting Longy this time next year. As for Wane, he has tinkered with McGuires game plans and lost the plot - still well coached but nothing new at all, they haven't moved on

 

I hate to keep banging on about this but its the depth of talent that we don't have, we do have genuine talent and if it all stays fit we can win world cups but outside that group where are the players to fill those gaps - Wayne Bennett would seem to agree

 

RL should throw money at junior development across Europe not just here, grow SL and the international game that way.

 

Otherwise we rely far too much on the SL teams and what they provide which isn't as much as we think as they are all still skint just keeping up with the wage bills and ground developments

 

Irrespective of those that think we can bolster our game through raising a salary cap to attract talent, that's usually antipodean players by the way, without depth to the sport and development a salary cap is just a mechanism to pay players, its not going to help get more better English or welsh or French players

 

We need academies across the UK and the EU, not more Aussies, we can just about keep up internationally with an elite programme

 

The answer is also not sending more of our talent down under to bolster their competition, lets develop what we have, get more elite level players here.

 

After all the acid test would be whether the NRL would bother with our players and I have to say we created and developed some of the best players in that competition, so we can do it when we try but need more of a pool to play with. I recall reading there were more players in the Penrith region than in the UK at semi-pro and pro level in the NRL. That's just one bit of the Aus pool they have to pick from

 

Clubs want more money to get better players from another competition and put bums on seats - they should grow a pair, admit they have got it wrong, shorten the elite season, bring back meaningful reserve grade games and spend the extra cap\spend whatever they manage to wheedle out of the RFL on development of elite players

 

Don't forget with the Sky money no club can say it doesn't have the full cap to spend, because they get that from the RFL. If they haven't got their houses in order and need that to survive then move on, let others in or how about actually paying people to run the marketing and advertising wings of teams instead of relying on poor paid newbies and well meaning volunteers to get new money and sponsors into the comp, stop relying on the RFL all the time and your local small businesses, there are national businesses based all over the north of England that would buy in if they even knew the sport existed

 

We have never had so much cash in our sport - from central funding or private backers - where the hell is it all going if its not on development and resourcing better facilities and coaching staff

 

The only thing I would import from Aus is more coaching staff, and conditioning staff, because that would raise the level of the sport within a couple of seasons. Yes we have really good coaches at our level, but as we just saw that's not good enough 

 

As for Stevo coming out with utter tosh about lazy UK players, he needs to take a lie down.  

 

If we raise the cap buy more conditioners\coaches\facilities to develop players, with the cap spent on retaining youth and development and running a reserve game. God forbid but I will say it, buy Farrell and Ford back from RU and get them to set up professional development centres because they have been in elite environments long enough to know what we should be doing before we commit suicide and throw the game in the bin and become no more than a feeder league for the NRL, a reserve comp in all but name.

 

Old man rant over. Apologies but needed to get that off my chest.

[Ant]

I'd also throw in that teams have gone backwards since automatic relegation and the 888 came in

Teams won't play a junior

Coaches won't try new playing styles

For most clubs the aim is now avoiding the bottom 4 not Winning

That's the same recipe we had for decades and got no where near Aus...after a few years of ringfenced super league teams improved. Development improved. We got closer than ever to winning a title on the world stage

And now we've gone back

[The Parksider]

 

I hate to keep banging on about this but its the depth of talent that we don't have, we do have genuine talent and if it all stays fit we can win world cups but outside that group where are the players to fill those gaps - Wayne Bennett would seem to agree

 

RL should throw money at junior development across Europe not just here

 

We need academies across the UK and the EU, 

 

The answer is lets develop what we have, get more elite level players here.

 

we need more of a pool to play with.

 

I recall reading there were more players in the Penrith region than in the UK at semi-pro and pro level in the NRL. That's just one bit of the Aus pool they have to pick from

 

Don't forget with the Sky money no club can say it doesn't have the full cap to spend, because they get that from the RFL. We have never had so much cash in our sport - from central funding or private backers - where the hell is it all going if its not on development and resourcing better facilities and coaching staff

 

Old man rant over. Apologies but needed to get that off my chest.

 

Rant away - very enjoyable.

 

But don't forget that although SKY pays the SL teams wages the Superleague clubs have to run a professional organisation and that means for the top clubs turning over £Millions more to pay the staff and the bills.

 

The willingness to put £Millions more in from Chairmen is restricted to their ambitions for their own club.

 

The RFL don't have enough money to throw at anything......

 

All the game can do is the best it can with limited funds, they are probably not far off doing that. 

[Bearman]

I'd also throw in that teams have gone backwards since automatic relegation and the 888 came in

Teams won't play a junior

Coaches won't try new playing styles

For most clubs the aim is now avoiding the bottom 4 not Winning

That's the same recipe we had for decades and got no where near Aus...after a few years of ringfenced super league teams improved. Development improved. We got closer than ever to winning a title on the world stage

And now we've gone back

I agree, unfortunately there is no chance of going back to a ring fenced league in the very near future.

[Futtocks]

Leeds have lost two inspirational leaders to retirement and an experienced playmaker (McGuire) to injury. But that doesn't excuse the drop-off in form in other areas. However, in the first half against the Cowboys, they did look a bit better organised than in their first two SL matches (and they weren't totally catastrophic against Warrington). I think they will probably sort themselves out quite a bit as the season progresses.

 

Wigan - Matty Smith needs a better halfback partner. Blake Green made a very good combination with him, for instance. Will Tomkins be the answer? The team can make yards against any opposition, but have trouble thinking of something different (shut up, Stevo!) when they get to the opposition's 20.

 

St Helens seem to be on a fast track to some sort of crisis, but I suppose it isn't easy to sack a man who has his own statue outside the stadium. Maybe a sideways promotion, if Cunningham is prepared to accept that it is necessary. Walsh, for whatever reason, isn't the player he was when he first arrived. The team look a little demoralised, although that's just an outsider's perception.

[chuffer]

Walsh, for whatever reason, isn't the player he was when he first arrived. The team look a little demoralised, although that's just an outsider's perception.

 

He looks a bit "skittish" and jumpy imo.....could be a confidence issue after returning from injury, again time may be a healer there