10 Mar: SL: Catalans Dragons v Hull Kingston Rovers KO 5pm (UK Time) (TV)

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Are they though? Because I think they are a decent coach away from being in the top 6. It is painful to watch at the moment. This is a club spending the full salary cap and probably a marquee payment.

I agree that they are poorly managed and a poorly run club.

[Just Browny]

5 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Agreed - right now, winning games is all that matters for Catalan...

The trouble is that they did everything in their power not to win the game, including the ludicrous 'Swing Low' tactics that seem to have taken root across Super League. They had plenty of chances to attack from close to the line and persisted with the penalty goals. One good attack from Hull KR and they were done for.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, walter sobchak said:

I agree that they are poorly managed and a poorly run club.

Trent Robinson showed just how much a strong voice can create a culture at the club. Tony Smith is kicking his heels. It is the type of renaissance project he loves. I agree with you, something needs to change quickly or things are only going in one direction.

[Ullman]

17 hours ago, meast said:

It's like listening to old football commentaries from '78 and '82 world cups or European cup ties from deepest, darkest Soviet Union!

All it needed was grainy black and pictures and the warm glow of nostalgia would have been complete.

[meast]

15 hours ago, metallithrax said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  Professional sport is about winning.  Hell, I would even say that amateur sport is about winning.  Who wants to be in, or support, a team that entertains but doesn't win.

I agree, Sport is about winning in the main, if you get wins and entertainment, then it's a bonus

If you want entertainment then the theatre etc is probably the place to go rather than sports grounds

[Chris22]

It's an interesting debate the winning vs entertainment one. And I'm not sure which side I agree with.

Yes, Catalans won last night, but are they really any further on as a result? Their crowds are plummeting, will that win encourage any stay away fans to come back next week? No.

Catalans played as if they were paralysed with fear. Will that style of play, although successful last night, be good enough to secure enough wins to make the top 8? No.

Play like that and they may scrape a few home wins against the likes of Hull KR, Salford, Widnes and maybe Huddersfield. And that game last night could easily have gone the other way. As for on the road, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't win a game throughout the entire regular season.

So, yes they did win, but the ultimate outcome of being destined to finish 11th/12th and having to scrap for their survival and hope that no-one in the Championship is good enough to oust them remains unchanged.

The win does not solve the underlying problems that Catalans face, and may in fact prolong them.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

Trent Robinson showed just how much a strong voice can create a culture at the club. Tony Smith is kicking his heels. It is the type of renaissance project he loves. I agree with you, something needs to change quickly or things are only going in one direction.

Am I right in my recollection that under Robinson the culture at the club was “French”? Training in French team talks in French? Because that’s how it should be any non French players should be under no illusions that they need to develop a working knowledge of French in as short a time as possible, it’s obvious to me there’s two teams out on the pitch, and they’re not playing for each other. 

[Liverpool Rover]

The McIlorum penalty is such a lazy way to win a penalty. I know that defenders have to get out of the way of the PTB but there are occasions when they just can't.

It was a game that clearly both teams went into thinking "we can't lose" rather than "we have to win" and it showed in how the game panned out. If Quinlan was able to score in the second half and if Greenwood hadn't have gone down the blind side and was caught on the last tackle in the first half then IMO we would have won. The one with Greenwood was a huge chance missed as if the ball had gone out wide it would have been a try.

Another big game against Huddersfield next week as I'm sure this will be another one targeted as a winnable away game.

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

Am I right in my recollection that under Robinson the culture at the club was “French”? Training in French team talks in French? Because that’s how it should be any non French players should be under no illusions that they need to develop a working knowledge of French in as short a time as possible, it’s obvious to me there’s two teams out on the pitch, and they’re not playing for each other. 

Yep it was. It helped he was fluent in french of course. We may never know the full story of how things panned out with Frayssinous but as this slipped the dressing room "french culture" slipped with it. Why oh why did they go down the Todd Carney, Willie Mason, Dave Taylor, Krishnan Inu route? The club is still feeling the effects of those decisions 3-4 years on.

[GeordieSaint]

2 hours ago, Just Browny said:

The trouble is that they did everything in their power not to win the game, including the ludicrous 'Swing Low' tactics that seem to have taken root across Super League. They had plenty of chances to attack from close to the line and persisted with the penalty goals. One good attack from Hull KR and they were done for.

Agreed - but they won so hopefully it’ll breed an element of confidence in the side. Ironically, their two best performances have been against the top two at home... lost of course but far better showings than last night. 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

16 hours ago, metallithrax said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  Professional sport is about winning.  Hell, I would even say that amateur sport is about winning.  Who wants to be in, or support, a team that entertains but doesn't win.

We may have to agree to disagree, metallithrax.

For me, the key difference between professional and amateur sport is that the emphasis in the former is on the pleasure of playing and in the latter on watching.  There are plenty of activities - sport and otherwise - in which individuals or teams (or other groups of individuals) demonstrate great skill and enjoy success, but I don't bother with them because I am not entertained.  Life is too short to waste time being bored by what you are watching!

Yes, we all want to win and see the sports teams we follow winning, but we need to be entertained in the process.  Some years ago I lived near Durham and followed the then highly successful Durham Wasps ice hockey team.  However, one season, they found themselves in an invidious position  - too good to be given a decent game by almost all British teams, too weak to make any impression at European club level.  There are only so many times you can be excited by a win if it is one-way traffic (in the case of the Wasps, routinely winning by scoring ten or more goals!)

So, for me, professional sport - let's call it spectator sport - is about entertaining.  Winning is the icing on the cake - with a layer of marzipan if you have to work hard for that success and win a competition too!

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

2 hours ago, meast said:

I agree, Sport is about winning in the main, if you get wins and entertainment, then it's a bonus

If you want entertainment then the theatre etc is probably the place to go rather than sports grounds

Are you being serious, meast?

Can I check I have got your stance on this right?  We make time in our lives available to watch professional sportsmen.  We pay for the privilege of doing so (whether as attendees at the matches or as satellite TV subscribers).  And yet...and yet...we cannot reasonably expect to be entertained?

Hello, is that Sky TV?  is that premier TV?  Can I cancel my subscriptions, please?  I'm sorry about this, but I seem to have been under a terrible misapprehension!

Less flippantly, and out of interest, is it possible for you to feel you have been entertained when your team loses?  And conversely, are you bound to have been entertained if your team wins?  For the record, my answers are, respectively, 'Yes' and, as with yesterday in Perpignan, 'No'.

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

Trent Robinson showed just how much a strong voice can create a culture at the club. Tony Smith is kicking his heels. It is the type of renaissance project he loves. I agree with you, something needs to change quickly or things are only going in one direction.

Didn’t Tony Smith knock them back last year?

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Didn’t Tony Smith knock them back last year?

Maybe he did, but he will have been doing DIY jobs around the house for 6 months now lol. Gives a guy a bit more perspective.

[Lowdesert]

Catalans still have half back problems and imo that is the main issue.  Albert is ok kicking, but still finds it difficult to take the ball to the line.  He is work in progress and the last two years of walking around the ground when not selected could’ve seen him learning his trade in the U23s.  Bird worked his socks off, and although a good player, he doesn’t have the nouse to move the team about, or provide a kicking option.  

What options at 13?  Not much, maybe Garcia or even Aiton,  if Da Costa was included - but is he SL standard?  Just some organisational nouse would see them able to compete, but they haven’t got the men on the ground capable.

Maybe sounds sarcastic, but forwards running into the gap, instead of the player, would go along way.  Which one of those forwards would be taken on by another SL team, barring Bousquet?

 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

55 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Catalans still have half back problems and imo that is the main issue.  Albert is ok kicking, but still finds it difficult to take the ball to the line.  He is work in progress and the last two years of walking around the ground when not selected could’ve seen him learning his trade in the U23s.  Bird worked his socks off, and although a good player, he doesn’t have the nouse to move the team about, or provide a kicking option.  

What options at 13?  Not much, maybe Garcia or even Aiton,  if Da Costa was included - but is he SL standard?  Just some organisational nouse would see them able to compete, but they haven’t got the men on the ground capable.

Maybe sounds sarcastic, but forwards running into the gap, instead of the player, would go along way.  Which one of those forwards would be taken on by another SL team, barring Bousquet?

 

Your points are well made, Lowdesert.

Another poster asked about Baitieri.  I think he and Casty have been good in the past, but the reality is that time marches on.  They are now OK - and their determination and dedication to the cause can never be questioned - but, as I say, tempus fugit and all that!  As far as the younger forwards go, some seem to be not as good as they were when elsewhere.  That is the point at which I worry about the coach and his support staff.

Re-options at no 13, didn't Williame play there in the World Cup with a reasonable, if not outstanding, degree of impact?  If so, I would consider him in that slot and persevere with Bird in tandem in the halves with the still teenage Albert.

If Broughton was added to the backs in lieu of Williame, they would look seriously speedy.  Of course, you then need to have the faith to exploit that speed - spread things out and move the ball quickly to and then along the backs.  You can have all the pace in the world in your nos 1 to 5, but if they rarely if ever see the ball, so what?

 

[Old Frightful]

On 3/8/2018 at 1:58 AM, Old Frightful said:

Les Cats 18 Hull KR 19 (Danny McGuire DG)

Rats!

Just typed a number upside down in error...McGuire was dead good though.

[metallithrax]

5 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

We may have to agree to disagree, metallithrax.

For me, the key difference between professional and amateur sport is that the emphasis in the former is on the pleasure of playing and in the latter on watching.  There are plenty of activities - sport and otherwise - in which individuals or teams (or other groups of individuals) demonstrate great skill and enjoy success, but I don't bother with them because I am not entertained.  Life is too short to waste time being bored by what you are watching!

Yes, we all want to win and see the sports teams we follow winning, but we need to be entertained in the process.  Some years ago I lived near Durham and followed the then highly successful Durham Wasps ice hockey team.  However, one season, they found themselves in an invidious position  - too good to be given a decent game by almost all British teams, too weak to make any impression at European club level.  There are only so many times you can be excited by a win if it is one-way traffic (in the case of the Wasps, routinely winning by scoring ten or more goals!)

So, for me, professional sport - let's call it spectator sport - is about entertaining.  Winning is the icing on the cake - with a layer of marzipan if you have to work hard for that success and win a competition too!

I agree, as a spectator you want to be entertained first and foremost.  But, the teams playing the sport want to win first and foremost.

[DavidM]

Sheens spitting chips about the penalty and mentioning that the authorities were clamping down on that type of gamesmanship after McNally did it among others early last year 

[stevereed100]

Absolutely right. Last year the RL instructed Refs to apply the rule(15.1) about playing to the spirit of the game.Apparently Wakefield also got away with this v Wigan.

If a player clearly and deliberately throws the ball at an inactive player a scrum in favour of the defensive side should be given.

Mikalauskas needs to be told as do all the Refs...we need consistency not gamesmanship by old hands on the pitch.

[DavidM]

109 pens in SL over the weekend ... the fewest was 16 . This is surely an area of the game that needs looking at , as not everything comes down to illdiscipline . The lack of latitude and propensity to blow the whistle as a first resort even when there’s no need is fracturing many games 

[stevereed100]

In response to Tim Sheens enquiry the RFL Referee management issue a letter to all Refs reminding them of last year's instruction......outlawing the penalising of a defensive player in receipt of a deliberate pass from the acting half.

How come 2 SL Referees ignored last year's clear instruction. Should be disciplined!

[Southerner80]

On 11/03/2018 at 3:40 PM, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Your points are well made, Lowdesert.

Another poster asked about Baitieri.  I think he and Casty have been good in the past, but the reality is that time marches on.  They are now OK - and their determination and dedication to the cause can never be questioned - but, as I say, tempus fugit and all that!  As far as the younger forwards go, some seem to be not as good as they were when elsewhere.  That is the point at which I worry about the coach and his support staff.

Re-options at no 13, didn't Williame play there in the World Cup with a reasonable, if not outstanding, degree of impact?  If so, I would consider him in that slot and persevere with Bird in tandem in the halves with the still teenage Albert.

If Broughton was added to the backs in lieu of Williame, they would look seriously speedy.  Of course, you then need to have the faith to exploit that speed - spread things out and move the ball quickly to and then along the backs.  You can have all the pace in the world in your nos 1 to 5, but if they rarely if ever see the ball, so what?

 

Williame is worth a shot at 13. Truth is WC outside of QF was not as high a standard of Teams as SL..so hard to say how he will go at 13 in SL.  Hes worth trying and brining in Broughton as tbh he hasn't done much wrong and is a good player.

Duport is worth a look too at centre or second row. Some players probably need a rotation here and there. I like Batieris attitude alot however I agree he is not making alot of yards in the games I see.

Lastly,  can Cats please try to get a half back.....Someone like Liam Finn or ideally Danny Brough. Both probably impossible mid season though.

Gigot?  Maybe try him at half back for 20 minutes here and there to see what happens?