Widnes problems

[Bcfc2014]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

This should cheer you up about Marc Green

HMRC investigating him too.

[Trojan]

10 minutes ago, RP London said:

Problem is you've picked the 1 that worked... for that one there are a number since 95 and the "professionalism" for whom it has gone horribly wrong.. London Scottish, London Welsh, Richmond, Bedford, London Irish (having to merge/takeover Richmond and scottish) Rotherham have been I'm dire straights, Worcester manage walked a tightrope.  

League has had the same too when you start to reel off the likes of eagles, workington, oldham, bradford, Widnes (twice now), Leigh. 

It's relegation that hurts. Promotion if done wrong also hurts because you spend loads you can't afford to try and stay up and if you stay up it staves off the bailiffs for a bit.. until you go down or you actually break it and start to make money.. 

I'm just pointing it out rather than making a comment on it as such... no idea if there is a solution except the sport to succeed like football (and even then plenty of teams go fut trying to buy promotions then stave off relegation). Closed shop solves a bit but then damages the league below... 

I wish I had a solution  

I hardly think you could include Bradford, Until the teens of this century they were one of the more successful clubs. Their problem was that they were not prudent.  Plus of course they went around the various RL towns of West Yorkshire, Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Keighley offering discount tickets to games at Odsal.  This not only adversely affected RL clubs in the towns mentioned, it also backfired on the Bulls too.

Closed shop doesn't just damage the teams in the league below, it also damages the teams in the same league.  They can't be relegated, they can't be promoted so they go through the motions and provide "easybeats" for the top sides.  Very bad for standards in the game as a whole.  Plus of course teams condemned to perpetually be taking a back seat it causes a haemorrhage of support.  I'm not saying fans say, "I'm not watching any more because of …"  I'm saying that fans depart through various means - they move away, they become unable to attend, or they die and there are no replacements, they've all gravitated to Super League.  Like it or not Rugby League is currently a dying sport, especially at lower levels.  If there's no local side, with players to emulate, then eventually there'll be no more players.

 

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

What exactly did Omar Kahn do that is so terrible ?

You seem to have missed a lot of others who are just as if not a lot more guilty of mismanagement than those youve highlighted

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

I don't disagree with any of that, and pretty much said as much in my original post, but it is problematic when  it comes to competition league tables. Clubs who live within their means and pay their debts can have worse squads and end up behind clubs who have been basket cases.

But there isn't an easy answer to this tbh. If there was no P&R I think it is easier, but when you are pretty much relegating a team it makes it less attractive to investors.

[DavidM]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I heard at Newcastle last weekend that this was the plan. An investor is there ready, but waiting for administration to clear the debts.

You’d reckon it can leave a sour taste when people and businesses are owed money , administration wipes them out , start again and you’ll want many of these same people and businesses in the community to back you again 

[Dr Tim Whatley]

1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Do you do the same at AFC Hypocrites, too?

No.

[Spidey]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't disagree with any of that, and pretty much said as much in my original post, but it is problematic when  it comes to competition league tables. Clubs who live within their means and pay their debts can have worse squads and end up behind clubs who have been basket cases.

But there isn't an easy answer to this tbh. If there was no P&R I think it is easier, but when you are pretty much relegating a team it makes it less attractive to investors.

We've obviously not lived within our means and still finished bottom for two years - that's some achievement

 

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Is there a fraud case for the directors to answer?  They've been busy trying to sell advance tickets for the Sheffield and Featherstone games for quite a while. They must have known this was imminent.

Hopefully the defrauded ticket buyers can claim back from their banks, but if the money isn't there this may not be possible for some that have paid by debit card.

You need to be very careful about using such words as fraud and defraud. Anonymous posters on forums are no more immune from libel laws than anyone else.

[Blind side johnny]

2 hours ago, Piggy's mate said:

Isn't just a case of why take on a debt riddled club when you can let them go into administration, fob off all the staff, small businesses etc. And just restart as Widnes 2019! Didn't the club formally known as Bradford Bulls, now named Bradford Bulls 2016 do the same?

No, they didn't.

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Feel for the small, local businesses who have worked with their local club under good faith, only to get shafted by an administrator. 

Repairing relationships will be a key part to the rejuvenation of Widnes Vikings. 

Makes me wonder how many Super League clubs are living on this knife edge. 

Agreed, but dwarfed by the collapse of much bigger organisations than a medium RL club - lets' start with Carillion, for example.

[Cheshire Setter]

13 minutes ago, Spidey said:

We've obviously not lived within our means and still finished bottom for two years - that's some achievement

 

I think Widnes are not the only club to gamble on living beyond their means and hope they don't get relegated...   I suppose owning your own ground would help mitigate the threat slightly.

Now there'll be no rugby played at the Halton Stadium what on earth will it be used for?   Didn't the LFC reserves stop using it years ago?

[Clogiron]

So if people are waiting till the club was in administration to buy it debt free that still raises the question of where they will play if one of the main debts was for the use of the ground to the council?  The Bulls , Cougars and Leigh weren't in that position or will the people of Halton & the council welcome them back with open arms!

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Clogiron said:

So if people are waiting till the club was in administration to buy it debt free that still raises the question of where they will play if one of the main debts was for the use of the ground to the council?  The Bulls , Cougars and Leigh weren't in that position or will the people of Halton & the council welcome them back with open arms!

I suspect a deal will always be forthcoming. Even if they get £100k moving forward it is better than £0 and to per off the locals.

There is always a deal to be had with the council.

[RP London]

52 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I hardly think you could include Bradford, Until the teens of this century they were one of the more successful clubs. Their problem was that they were not prudent.  Plus of course they went around the various RL towns of West Yorkshire, Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Keighley offering discount tickets to games at Odsal.  This not only adversely affected RL clubs in the towns mentioned, it also backfired on the Bulls too.

Closed shop doesn't just damage the teams in the league below, it also damages the teams in the same league.  They can't be relegated, they can't be promoted so they go through the motions and provide "easybeats" for the top sides.  Very bad for standards in the game as a whole.  Plus of course teams condemned to perpetually be taking a back seat it causes a haemorrhage of support.  I'm not saying fans say, "I'm not watching any more because of …"  I'm saying that fans depart through various means - they move away, they become unable to attend, or they die and there are no replacements, they've all gravitated to Super League.  Like it or not Rugby League is currently a dying sport, especially at lower levels.  If there's no local side, with players to emulate, then eventually there'll be no more players.

 

I'm not diagreeing... there is always a reason but it's exacerbated by a sudden drop in income.. you can always make excuses for what is happening but that just papers over cracks. 

As I say I don't know the answer, none of us do otherwise we would be very rich, and there are always arguments for and against (a closed shop means a club can build while.beomg mediocre without the worry of relegation for example.. we didn't give it long enough to really see this in action though some can be argued). Until the league you go down to doesn't have a huge drop off in income this problems will always be there. 

For the fans we need to see where achey are going. You are right they move away.. happening in all walks of life and always have leagues and comps have evolved due to that (look at the founding members in 1895 and up to about 1900 and see who is still there and who has moved on). We at closed even at league 1 to other teams coming in allowing for that movement (to an extent).

The forum isn't the place for a deep socio economic argument but the closed attitude to anything new and ability to correctly fund things has help RL to towns and villages that are changing and declining and not allowing for growth where it may be found. 

I honestly think Widnes have been damaged indirectly from this rather than it being a Widnes issue itself (if that makes sense)

Of course this is just my opinion. 

[phiggins]

41 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

I think Widnes are not the only club to gamble on living beyond their means and hope they don't get relegated...   I suppose owning your own ground would help mitigate the threat slightly.

Now there'll be no rugby played at the Halton Stadium what on earth will it be used for?   Didn't the LFC reserves stop using it years ago?

But what did they gamble? They cashed in on Brown and never replaced him, and were one of few clubs not to spend the cap.

Then on relegation all playing contracts were voided, so it wasn't a case of them living beyond their means and hoping they don't get relegated (which is probably the case at all but a few SL clubs). Instead their owners appear to have budgeted for this season based on it being somebody else's problem after a takeover. 

[Cheshire Setter]

1 minute ago, phiggins said:

But what did they gamble? They cashed in on Brown and never replaced him, and were one of few clubs not to spend the cap.

Was just basing my observations on what Widnes fans are saying the club had done. Did they have the income to cover the costs, even though they were operating at below the cap?   I know they were careful for the last decade or so, but maybe that good season in 2016 led them to commit to long-term higher salaries on players who (with the greatest respect) weren’t going to maintain that 2016 form.

[Oliver Clothesoff]

59 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

I think Widnes are not the only club to gamble on living beyond their means and hope they don't get relegated...   I suppose owning your own ground would help mitigate the threat slightly.

Now there'll be no rugby played at the Halton Stadium what on earth will it be used for?   Didn't the LFC reserves stop using it years ago?

Halton Spartans American Football Team, Widnes Football Club (formerly called Widnes Vikings) and one of Liverpool or Everton Ladies’ teams. 

[gingerjon]

44 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

There is always a deal to be had with the council.

Councils are in a selling assets kind of mood. It wouldn't take much for them to decide that a stadium that no one who can afford it is going to use is something they don't need. And, heh presto, a new housing estate or Aldi ...

[AlanE]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

I don't agree with the way Leigh dealt with their playing staff, coaches etc, but I would point out that Derek Beaumont still owns the club, which would probably be in a similar plight to Widnes, had he not taken the drastic measures that he did. Yes, some of the players were shafted, (whilst others were perhaps undeservedly 'promoted' to SL) but there is still a Leigh Centurions club, operating on a much more sensible footing.

[AlanE]

Can somebody please explain to me the logic of a 12 point deduction? Did Bradford suffer the same punishment? And, if so, wasn't that in the era of 3 points for a win, in the Championship? If so, shouldn't the Widnes deduction be 8 points?

Sorry, loads of questions there, but they do follow a logical path!

[Oliver Clothesoff]

10 minutes ago, AlanE said:

Can somebody please explain to me the logic of a 12 point deduction? Did Bradford suffer the same punishment? And, if so, wasn't that in the era of 3 points for a win, in the Championship? If so, shouldn't the Widnes deduction be 8 points?

Sorry, loads of questions there, but they do follow a logical path!

I think they did and I’m certain that it was back to two points when they did. 

[Krzzystuff]

10 minutes ago, AlanE said:

I don't agree with the way Leigh dealt with their playing staff, coaches etc, but I would point out that Derek Beaumont still owns the club, which would probably be in a similar plight to Widnes, had he not taken the drastic measures that he did. Yes, some of the players were shafted, (whilst others were perhaps undeservedly 'promoted' to SL) but there is still a Leigh Centurions club, operating on a much more sensible footing.

True but DJB only owns them because he can't sell them, no buyers for the club it seems. they way he dealt with the issues and always pointed out that it was someone else's fault speaks volumes of the man.

[Angelic Cynic]

Looking at the Trust In Widnes ( I know ) forum it seems directors at the Vikings took a salary.

I still fail to see how a 'live' salary cap check by the governing body fails to see how a club does,or does not pay HMRC,or have a good idea about income and expenditure. 

I'm guessing,of course,but it would seem that this profligacy started while the club was 'elite'.

Not paying to use the stadium hasn't been a recent practice,I wouldn't have thought.

Ridiculous that 2 former World Club Champions,in recent decades,should undergo such a financial mess - and fail to have it noticed until it is too late.

 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

16 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Halton Spartans American Football Team, Widnes Football Club (formerly called Widnes Vikings) and one of Liverpool or Everton Ladies’ teams. 

Neither Everton or Liverpool ladies football teams play at the Halton Stadium.

[Cheshire Setter]

9 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Neither Everton or Liverpool ladies football teams play at the Halton Stadium.

I’m guessing the Widnes football team doesn’t get enough fans to justify the cost of operating the stadium then.

Do the council utilise the other parts of the stadium to get some significant income?   I know at Warrington it’s a very important part of the business, renting out the space and the facilities ensuring the stadium pays for it’s upkeep.   It’s helped by the stadium’s location right in the town centre of course.

What a shame if Halton borough council get rid of a perfectly good 10k capacity RL ground.   Maybe they could box it up and send to somewhere equidistant between Castleford and Wakefield !