Widnes problems

[Tommygilf 4,213]

21 minutes ago, Piggy's mate said:

Isn't just a case of why take on a debt riddled club when you can let them go into administration, fob off all the staff, small businesses etc. And just restart as Widnes 2019! Didn't the club formally known as Bradford Bulls, now named Bradford Bulls 2016 do the same?

I heard at Newcastle last weekend that this was the plan. An investor is there ready, but waiting for administration to clear the debts.

[Amber Avenger 912]

21 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

Giving them a 12 point deduction and putting them in serious risk of relegation is a sure way to tray and get new investors in to tray and save the team isn't it? I know that was done to Bradford but that's wasn't a genius idea then either. If Argyle invests in them or not I don't care much as I will still be a TWP supporter but the RFL isn't doing anything to help bring money into the game here.

2

On the flip side, if there is no points deduction, what is to stop clubs going to into administration, wiping out any debt and screwing over the people that are owed money rather than settling debt the honest way? The RFL would be crucified for letting that happen too. The way to sell Widnes now, is probably similar to the way you sold Bradford two years ago, you ain't getting a sniff of anything good in the next 12/18 months but you've got the good basis to build this from the ground up if you do it properly. Nobody investing in any business - sport or otherwise - should be expecting an instant return from a business in administration surely?

Edited February 22, 2019 by Amber Avenger

[meast 1,376]

5 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

People, generally, aren’t bothered about MK Dons. The animosity has long since died down and there’s no boycott of attending MK Dons as an away fan. I’d say the only people really bothered by them are AFC Hypocrites.

I'd say you were well off the mark, there is a huge amount of anti MK Dons feelings around, big numbers of football fans of all clubs and levels who won't give a penny to them, indeed some, won't even acknowledge they exist.

To say there are only Wimbledon fans who have a problem is way off IMO

[Spidey 2,755]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Who's withholding?

The BBC reported they got an advance payment so salaries could be paid.

RFL advanced central funding. SL withholding parachute payment 

[Krzzystuff 2,261]

21 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

On the flip side, if there is no points deduction, what is to stop clubs going to into administration, wiping out any debt and screwing over the people that are owed money rather than settling debt the honest way? The RFL would be crucified for letting that happen too. The way to sell Widnes now, is probably similar to the way you sold Bradford two years ago, you ain't getting a sniff of anything good in the next 12/18 months but you've got the good basis to build this from the ground up if you do it properly. Nobody investing in any business - sport or otherwise - should be expecting an instant return from a business in administration surely?

very good point.

[Dr Tim Whatley 326]

5 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

People, generally, aren’t bothered about MK Dons. The animosity has long since died down and there’s no boycott of attending MK Dons as an away fan. I’d say the only people really bothered by them are AFC Hypocrites.

I disagree. I know plenty of fellow Southend United fans who would refuse to set foot in that stadium. Not an issue this year thankfully as they were relegated in 2018. The mugs.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Dr Tim Whatley

[The Parksider 1,799]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:37 AM, Omott91 said:

A question for English folks,

There is a lot of talk about possible Liverpool and Manchester teams and how they're not rl cities. From an Aussie perspective both these cities have rl teams in their outlying suburbs. For example, Salford is less than a few kilometres from Manchester according to Google. The same for Liverpool. I've read so comments on how Liverpool doesn't play rl, yet last year the city had 3 Super League teams within half hour drive. My question is how far away from a rl playing area do you need to be before it is considered to be a non rl area? Also, how much closer to Manchester does an rl team need to be for Manchester to be considered an rl city if Salford isn't close enough already?

This is an (unusual for you) very good post indeed, and very perceptive. The very fact Liverpool and Hull are linked by an extremely busy motorway I was on only last night shows that people move significant distances for their work and entertainment. As one leaves Liverpool the signs to Warrington, St.Helens and Widnes come up very quickly and of course there are many RL fans in Liverpool and of course they go watch these clubs just as people in these three RL towns go watch Liverpool and Everton. The latter club a big Liverpool based soccer club, has large support from North Wales and the fact you have recognised is Liverpool RLFC are not going to pull RL fans with three big RL clubs on the doorstep.

Castleford is a small town off the motorway of 40K people and hardly has the wider area to itself with Featherstone and Wakefield close by. It got an average crowd of 9,000 in 2017 very many of whom were attracted to the club from outlying areas because it ain't hard to get to. Cas fans themselves comment on the reach of the club.

In Manchester - I went from Leeds to Manchester and back yesterday, there is a river close to the city centre where if you cross the bridges you are in Salford. The two city's are just one conglomeration and whilst Salford is to the West I know Salford fans who live in the east of the conurbation in Manchester. All these people decrying Manchester being blocked from entry to the game have this weird idea that nobody in Manchester has heard of RL and if a club lands on their doorstep they are going to support it in their thousands. They just aren't, and the RFL have to take the usual stick accordingly.

Newcastle RL are on 800 crowds from a 775,000 (wiki) Tyneside conurbation. They have no other RL clubs near them and are becoming a club that may just survive in the Championship. They face established big Soccer and Rugby Union clubs attracting many thousands of fans which any RL club away from the M62 will face. 

The fact is expansion away from the M62 or even inside the M62 doesn't work for a regional minority sport hence over the last 122 years 51 new clubs have gone under and currently a good number more face this if the TV deal reduces for 2021 and of course the Superleague clubs take all the available money which they have to.

But the bottom line is for some people, many who turn up on here new clubs are exciting and old clubs are boring, but at least the old established ones are very real. Not a bloke with some money shipping players to a rented ground somewhere there is minimal RL interest.

Edited February 22, 2019 by The Parksider

[Oliver Clothesoff 2,805]

17 minutes ago, meast said:

I'd say you were well off the mark, there is a huge amount of anti MK Dons feelings around, big numbers of football fans of all clubs and levels who won't give a penny to them, indeed some, won't even acknowledge they exist.

To say there are only Wimbledon fans who have a problem is way off IMO

It’s really not. People aren’t fussed by them anymore. Any initial hatred has died down and it’s just the occasional chant now. I wouldn’t even say people boycott, it’s certainly not proven to be the case, teams get good allocation there and tend to fill it when given that much. 

[Oliver Clothesoff 2,805]

2 minutes ago, Dr Tim Whatley said:

I disagree. I know plenty of fellow Southend United fans who would refuse to set foot in that stadium. Not an issue this year thankfully as they were relegated in 2018. The mugs.

Do you do the same at AFC Hypocrites, too?

[Bcfc2014 16]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

If Widnes is liquidated then what's to stop David Arygle buying their licence and moving them?

The RFL suspend the licence when a club enters admin. So it's all up to the RFL what they do with the licence.

[Oliver Clothesoff 2,805]

Feel for the small, local businesses who have worked with their local club under good faith, only to get shafted by an administrator. 

Repairing relationships will be a key part to the rejuvenation of Widnes Vikings. 

Makes me wonder how many Super League clubs are living on this knife edge. 

[scotchy1 5,748]

55 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

On the flip side, if there is no points deduction, what is to stop clubs going to into administration, wiping out any debt and screwing over the people that are owed money rather than settling debt the honest way? The RFL would be crucified for letting that happen too. The way to sell Widnes now, is probably similar to the way you sold Bradford two years ago, you ain't getting a sniff of anything good in the next 12/18 months but you've got the good basis to build this from the ground up if you do it properly. Nobody investing in any business - sport or otherwise - should be expecting an instant return from a business in administration surely?

Well the thing is, it's two separate sets of people that you are counting as one entity.

say you own widnes and owe these people money, what's to stop you putting the club in to administration to avoid those debts. Well you lose what you have put in to the club and you lose ownership of the club. 

I then come in and buy the club, I've done nothing wrong. In fact I've done a good thing, taking on a failing business saving jobs etc. I then get punished with a 12 point deduction, transfer embargo etc etc. 

You no longer own the club or have any involvement in it. This punishment had absolutely no effect on you. But was to my detriment when I had no influence on either the debts or administration

[Tyrone Shoelaces 970]

2 hours ago, Route66 said:

Sad to see the state of a great club,i have many memories of some wonderful Widnes teams especially from the late seventies when town just couldn't beat them in the those Lancashire cup finals and the freescoring team with a young Martin Offiah really hope it's not too late to save them

Yeah they were a great team to watch with some fantastic players. The were my favourite " second team " after the Mighty Hornets. A coach load of us went from work to the Canberra Raiders v Widnes game at Old Trafford. What a great night that was.

[chuffer 1,792]

2 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Is there a fraud case for the directors to answer?  They've been busy trying to sell advance tickets for the Sheffield and Featherstone games for quite a while. They must have known this was imminent.

Hopefully the defrauded ticket buyers can claim back from their banks, but if the money isn't there this may not be possible for some that have paid by debit card.

Im keen to see the outcome of an impending investigation into the board's behaviour, lots of mud being thrown at certain people, unsurprisingly....

[Dave T 15,747]

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well the thing is, it's two separate sets of people that you are counting as one entity.

say you own widnes and owe these people money, what's to stop you putting the club in to administration to avoid those debts. Well you lose what you have put in to the club and you lose ownership of the club. 

I then come in and buy the club, I've done nothing wrong. In fact I've done a good thing, taking on a failing business saving jobs etc. I then get punished with a 12 point deduction, transfer embargo etc etc. 

You no longer own the club or have any involvement in it. This punishment had absolutely no effect on you. But was to my detriment when I had no influence on either the debts or administration

I do understand the dilemma, however without this it is in potential new owners interests to allow the club to go belly up before taking over debt free. If you are going to buy a club and take their league position and points it would be hard to allow that to happen punishment free.

But, it is a tough one, when we have so few investors, it may not be doing the job it intended. 

[RP London 2,303]

5 hours ago, Trojan said:

Widnes were a promoted side, as were Leigh.  The general assumption of many on this forum is that promotion is as bad as relegation, and the one ultimately leads to the other for the club involved.  I'd say Exeter Chief's experience in Union proves the opposite.  We should aim for a similar situation in our game.  Until we do IMO the game will continue to struggle,

Problem is you've picked the 1 that worked... for that one there are a number since 95 and the "professionalism" for whom it has gone horribly wrong.. London Scottish, London Welsh, Richmond, Bedford, London Irish (having to merge/takeover Richmond and scottish) Rotherham have been I'm dire straights, Worcester manage walked a tightrope.  

League has had the same too when you start to reel off the likes of eagles, workington, oldham, bradford, Widnes (twice now), Leigh. 

It's relegation that hurts. Promotion if done wrong also hurts because you spend loads you can't afford to try and stay up and if you stay up it staves off the bailiffs for a bit.. until you go down or you actually break it and start to make money.. 

I'm just pointing it out rather than making a comment on it as such... no idea if there is a solution except the sport to succeed like football (and even then plenty of teams go fut trying to buy promotions then stave off relegation). Closed shop solves a bit but then damages the league below... 

I wish I had a solution  

[Padge 5,601]

On 2/20/2019 at 3:23 PM, Marty Funkhouser said:

Think you should consider a name change to "Stretchy"...the "professional era" started in 1895...ALL have been relegated in modern times buts that irrespective of your original comment...Relegation has no "inevitable end product" at all...if we are stretching as much as you like to then ask Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea or even Juventus,

Except it didn't. 

[scotchy1 5,748]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do understand the dilemma, however without this it is in potential new owners interests to allow the club to go belly up before taking over debt free. If you are going to buy a club and take their league position and points it would be hard to allow that to happen punishment free.

But, it is a tough one, when we have so few investors, it may not be doing the job it intended. 

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

[Krzzystuff 2,261]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game.

totally agree with banning  the people who are the ones responsible for driving a club into the ground and then just walk away. had a chance, blew it, never allowed back.

[Bcfc2014 16]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

This should cheer you up about Marc Green

HMRC investigating him too.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Bcfc2014

[Trojan 3,156]

10 minutes ago, RP London said:

Problem is you've picked the 1 that worked... for that one there are a number since 95 and the "professionalism" for whom it has gone horribly wrong.. London Scottish, London Welsh, Richmond, Bedford, London Irish (having to merge/takeover Richmond and scottish) Rotherham have been I'm dire straights, Worcester manage walked a tightrope.  

League has had the same too when you start to reel off the likes of eagles, workington, oldham, bradford, Widnes (twice now), Leigh. 

It's relegation that hurts. Promotion if done wrong also hurts because you spend loads you can't afford to try and stay up and if you stay up it staves off the bailiffs for a bit.. until you go down or you actually break it and start to make money.. 

I'm just pointing it out rather than making a comment on it as such... no idea if there is a solution except the sport to succeed like football (and even then plenty of teams go fut trying to buy promotions then stave off relegation). Closed shop solves a bit but then damages the league below... 

I wish I had a solution  

I hardly think you could include Bradford, Until the teens of this century they were one of the more successful clubs. Their problem was that they were not prudent.  Plus of course they went around the various RL towns of West Yorkshire, Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Keighley offering discount tickets to games at Odsal.  This not only adversely affected RL clubs in the towns mentioned, it also backfired on the Bulls too.

Closed shop doesn't just damage the teams in the league below, it also damages the teams in the same league.  They can't be relegated, they can't be promoted so they go through the motions and provide "easybeats" for the top sides.  Very bad for standards in the game as a whole.  Plus of course teams condemned to perpetually be taking a back seat it causes a haemorrhage of support.  I'm not saying fans say, "I'm not watching any more because of …"  I'm saying that fans depart through various means - they move away, they become unable to attend, or they die and there are no replacements, they've all gravitated to Super League.  Like it or not Rugby League is currently a dying sport, especially at lower levels.  If there's no local side, with players to emulate, then eventually there'll be no more players.

 

[GUBRATS 3,654]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

What exactly did Omar Kahn do that is so terrible ?

You seem to have missed a lot of others who are just as if not a lot more guilty of mismanagement than those youve highlighted

[Dave T 15,747]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But dont we want investors coming in?

I'm all for rules preventing a prepack certainly, there something a bit morally wrong with that kind of situation. 

I'm also keen to make sure any 'Rugby debts' are paid, especially player contracts honoured.

However I'd argue that administration isn't a painless process for a club, the squad gets picked apart, often big revenue streams like sponsorship and season tickets are gone. I'm not sure it is preferable to saving a club if you can. But the administration process exists for all businesses for a reason and is sometimes the best of a bad situation. 

And I'm all for punishing the right people. The likes of beaumont, James rule, marc greene, Omar Kahn et al should all be publicly banned from the game. They shouldn't be able to watch an u8s game never mind have any involvement in it.

I don't disagree with any of that, and pretty much said as much in my original post, but it is problematic when  it comes to competition league tables. Clubs who live within their means and pay their debts can have worse squads and end up behind clubs who have been basket cases.

But there isn't an easy answer to this tbh. If there was no P&R I think it is easier, but when you are pretty much relegating a team it makes it less attractive to investors.

[DavidM 8,687]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I heard at Newcastle last weekend that this was the plan. An investor is there ready, but waiting for administration to clear the debts.

You’d reckon it can leave a sour taste when people and businesses are owed money , administration wipes them out , start again and you’ll want many of these same people and businesses in the community to back you again 

[scotchy1 5,748]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

What exactly did Omar Kahn do that is so terrible ?

You seem to have missed a lot of others who are just as if not a lot more guilty of mismanagement than those youve highlighted

I didn't say it was an exhaustive list. 

As for Khan ok bulls went in to administration though I accept his case was more complicated than most.