Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[RobertAM]

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

To be quite honest, given the choice of an Anglo-Australian team in a Canadian jersey versus a French-Australian team in a French jersey, I’d take the latter. 

As a Sky punter, I’d be happier with weekly French games on a Saturday evening at dedicated rugby venues than the Lamport linefest. I believe Toronto games are a poor product from a visual perspective.

A superleague quality team putting on a RL masterclass with the background of a nearly full stadium  and this  guy calls it a poor product.

I guess a sparsely populated stadium with all the right lines is more to his liking. No wonder the game is struggling. 

[Omott91]

If this does happen it proves the small mindedness of super league and further reinforces their small pit town mentality. If they refuse twp and they keep up a club who lives hand to mouth on and off the field each year would just be downright embarrassing.  

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Omott91 said:

If this does happen it proves the small mindedness of super league and further reinforces their small pit town mentality. If they refuse twp and they keep up a club who lives hand to mouth on and off the field each year would just be downright embarrassing.  

They don't got the guts for the fight...I say call their bluff....with Sky on board they will cave like the cowards they are.

[Omott91]

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

From a televisual perspective. The plethora of line markings and low camera angle make for a second-rate product IMHO.

If that's what you think of twp, I'd love to know what you think of Wakefields tv product then. 

[CanadianRugger]

13 hours ago, Damien said:

If they have survived for 3 years in League 1 and the Championship with the income generated there then I'm sure they can survive in Super League.

While picking up the tab for everyone else lmao!

They aren't anymore financially unstable than Salford, Leigh, Widnes, or London Broncos 5.0

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Omott91 said:

If that's what you think of twp, I'd love to know what you think of Wakefields tv product then. 

Belle Vue is an embarrassment to Super League and should be upgraded/condemned ASAP. Doesn’t make Lamport any better though. 

[ojx]

SL is so financially poor they are resorting to extortion. But don't worry, they won't have the balls to block Toronto. If they do, the sport will be a complete joke. No one will invest in it after that.

[Dave T]

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

[gingerjon]

To give a recent example, I'm not sure I see a difference between Super League wanting to see assurances that Toronto have the requisite finances in place and EFL's failure to obtain the same from Bury.

If you've got the money, you'll be able to prove it. If you haven't, then you won't.

But no credible professional league let's clubs play in it without getting confirmation.

[Smudger06]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

Plus TWP's own travel costs! Call it a steady million £. 

Argyle will pay the salary cap and the other £800k tv money could go on marque players? 

The Major sponsorship will be renewed or replaced and having gained promotion to SL you can't see that value dropping, and this money will now go into the clubs coffers instead of straight onto travel costs!

On attaining SL, top flight, you'd expect TSN, Sportsnet or BeIN to do a deal similar to Catalans guaranteeing a much higher quality simulcast for Sky Sports & No production costs for the club! Having looking at it, I can see why they could easily be a dominant force much like Melbourne Storm! 

However, SL must have certain assurances. Having been a laughing stock with the Paris & Crusaders fiascos. 

[Nearenough]

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

How come its been possible for  part time clubs in the championship/league 1 to fly there for the past few years?

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, Nearenough said:

How come its been possible for  part time clubs in the championship/league 1 to fly there for the past few years?

Air Transat, a Canadian version of Thomas Cook, a holiday company with an airline fleet is Toronto Wolfpacks main sponsor and covers the all costs involved in transatlantic travel, but that deal is due to end. 

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Nearenough said:

How come its been possible for  part time clubs in the championship/league 1 to fly there for the past few years?

Because TWP covered it.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Maybe a couple of grand per person? £60k per club? So over 14 games that would be an additional cost brought into SL of maybe £850k. 

Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is, whether that is by sponsors, media or the club themselves. 

I genuinely cant see a sticking point beyond that. As has been said TWP are less risky than many clubs in the game.

It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

What happens with trips to Catalan at the moment or indeed say London where many teams stay over for a night or two? Clubs already have costs at the moment with any away trip so I don't see why Toronto should fund all of the costs. I can certainly see why clubs would want their costs covered though and are right to want assurances about that.

I do think though that the moment Toronto/ Canada become a contributor to the TV money pool, enough to cover travel costs, and clubs are benefiting from that money then any Toronto travel funding should stop.

[frank]

If your going to demand Toronto pay all the fares for Super League Clubs then the same must apply when traveling to France.Admittedly there is a difference in  costs but you can't penalize one  and not others.

Super league is in a bad way with the best players heading for the NRL and that means less fans.New  teams are required in the  form of Toronto and others.Drive them away and your stuffed good and proper.

[frank]

2 minutes ago, frank said:

If your going to demand Toronto pay all the fares for Super League Clubs then the same must apply when traveling to France.Admittedly there is a difference in  costs but you can't penalize one  and not others.

Super league is in a bad way with the best players heading for the NRL and that means less fans.New  teams are required in the  form of Toronto and others to keep the interest there.Drive them away and your stuffed good and proper.

 

[The Parksider]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

What do we think the costs will be for a trip to TWP for each club? Is it reasonable for SL to demand that this cost is covered? I think it is. It is easy to see that if TWP wont be funding the travel costs then it would come from their tv funding.

Never one for the facts are you? What TV funding? TWP made it clear they would attract their own TV funding/deal and they got a deal albeit non-paying ( they pay to be on TV), and SL made it clear SKY money was for the clubs here. SL bosses openly said they prefer TO for promotion so they and Catalans can get their own French TV deal improving the small deal Catalans have with the derbies being the added attraction? We  are set to see the SKY English TV deal slashed and if you care to follow the RL news and take note of what's said by the SL bosses for once then this new plan appears to be the mitigation of the reduction in the SKY deal  in which we aim to retain a 12 club Superleague but only with nine English clubs (and SL bosses said this is SKY's bottom line) sharing the reduced new SKY deal. 

I have the cuttings (you refused to let me send you) about the current SKY deal Mr. Sadler explained when it was agreed. It was £200M. In there two payments went directly to Superleague clubs. Firstly the big money to pay the professional wages and secondly the money to support the player development. This totalled £2.125 Million a club per year. If the nine English clubs can get that again for another 5 years then the SKY deal required would need to be around £100 Million, with the French and TWP on their own TV deal. This allows SL to maintain their funding but hand SKY a massive saving.....

There lies the key to maintaining the current level of SKY funding of the English SL clubs*** by allowing TWP in and then TO in who along with Cats could have their own French TV deal. Obviously if TWP are to be part of this plan the SL clubs have to make sure Argyle will be in it for the duration of that TV deal, and that the $$Billionaire won't baulk at continuing to pay for the visiting teams as the quid pro quo for entry to Superleague.

Kayakman may suggest this is fleecing TWP, but he needs to look up Argyles total wealth and age. It's peanuts, and given his club failed in their promise to deliver any players or TV deals to share here, it's absolutely right that they make up for that total failure by providing money and paying travel costs.

The bottom line for such a plan is will Argyle commit to a five year plan? As it stands his outstanding debts are heavy and creditors are chasing him. If he won't pay his bills and guarantee to pay them for the length of the new Contract there is no point in this plan in which TWP actually contribute something to the game. Despite the adulation on here TWP offer us nothing but Argyle's money and their on field achievements against part time cannon fodder is no achievement at all, Well I remember Huddersfield win the Championship 2002 scoring 1156 points going unbeaten all season....Once they got into Superleage they came 10th. The same awaits the mighty TWP or worse, and  they don't like losing - re-run their challenge cup game at Warrington..........

***Vast sums of SKY money in the current TV deal go to the Championships, I guess from 2021 they won't get a penny hence the idea that many of them are set to fold as pro outfits starved of any funds under the new deal

[RayCee]

Assuming this is true...

To expect Toronto to pay for all the flight would be plain bonkers. 

The Australian RL insisted on this for Perth and it lasted two years. The Auckland Warriors had to do it for seven years and at the end of that period, they were a bad way financially. That cost impacted on investment in more important areas. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

They in the top league will attract top players from down under more than most SL clubs, that will improve the spectacle on show which will more likely to attract new viewers for sky.

I will say it very softly and slowly so you understand S A L A R Y  C A P

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, Damien said:

What happens with trips to Catalan at the moment or indeed say London where many teams stay over for a night or two? Clubs already have costs at the moment with any away trip so I don't see why Toronto should fund all of the costs. I can certainly see why clubs would want their costs covered though and are right to want assurances about that.

I do think though that the moment Toronto/ Canada become a contributor to the TV money pool, enough to cover travel costs, and clubs are benefiting from that money then any Toronto travel funding should stop.

On point 1 I think there are a couple of differences. Firstly, it is fair to describe these costs as BAU compared to a Toronto trip. Quite a few clubs fly in and out now for Catalans, and London is a coach trip. Secondly, London were a part of the original SL and increased funding that came with that. Catalans as a club was a conscious move by the sport here RFL/SLE to expand and a decision was made based on them as a club. 

But the Catalans and London examples are probably good ones on why the game is perhaps being a little more careful here. If we are looking at hard cash ROI, it is hard to see what we get from London and Catalans as clubs in SL. For too long the game has failed to monetize these opportunities, we saw that the game didn't suffer when London got relegated and hasn't grown when they returned. We are pretty much putting up with the smallest club in the league simply because they have the name London in them. Catalans haven't brought any kind of sponsorship or European tv deal, although it is fair to make an argument that they add to the overall vibrancy of the comp, bring players, fans etc. which makes our comp more attractive to sponsors and the media here, but directly we get nowt in TV deals.

We keep hearing that we 'need' these clubs, but as a comp we have failed to draw out added value from them, and that is on the game here rather than those individual clubs, but we can't go into the TWP project and be surprised that people question whether the TV deals worth millions are really going to come. 

On the surface, adding TWP to the SL simply increases costs in a way no other club does. Unless we can get more into the central funding pot. This needs to be via TV deals, sponsorship, or quite simply through the club 'buying in'. So far they have been buying in by covering increased costs, and that is why it is still reasonable for SLE to make these demands - as you say in your last para though, ideally this simply comes from sponsorship/media deals either directly with TWP or centrally (I prefer centrally rather than putting it all on TWP).

Now, that is the challenging side out of the way, I will say that for me it is a gamble worth taking. I think there is value in creating a more vibrant comp, and let's be blunt, the TWP games on TV, with a cashed up owner signing top players will be more attractive than some of the clubs at the bottom now. The more clubs we get with big crowds and top players, the more attractive the comp becomes and then that is up to us to capitalise on that.

But there is a risk that we keep taking these gambles and never getting the returns. 

[Dave T]

29 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Never one for the facts are you? What TV funding? TWP made it clear they would attract their own TV funding/deal and they got a deal albeit non-paying ( they pay to be on TV), and SL made it clear SKY money was for the clubs here. SL bosses openly said they prefer TO for promotion so they and Catalans can get their own French TV deal improving the small deal Catalans have with the derbies being the added attraction? We  are set to see the SKY English TV deal slashed and if you care to follow the RL news and take note of what's said by the SL bosses for once then this new plan appears to be the mitigation of the reduction in the SKY deal  in which we aim to retain a 12 club Superleague but only with nine English clubs (and SL bosses said this is SKY's bottom line) sharing the reduced new SKY deal. 

Bore off you troll.

The current TV deal is split amongst the clubs and RFL/SLE. Catalans currently get their share of this English TV deal. 

The rest of your post does not relate to any of my post, as usual.

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Assuming this is true...

To expect Toronto to pay for all the flight would be plain bonkers. 

The Australian RL insisted on this for Perth and it lasted two years. The Auckland Warriors had to do it for seven years and at the end of that period, they were a bad way financially. That cost impacted on investment in more important areas. 

Is it though? Remember that Toronto bought their way into the UK governing body's pyramid by covering these costs. 

I see two approaches. 

1 - allow to benefit from all the riches from the NA presence, but cover costs

or

2 - all clubs cover their own costs, but any TV and sponsorship deals from Canada go into the central pot.

Personally I think 2 is the best model, share the risk, share the success. But if the clubs don't believe that there is value coming from NA, that is where 2 becomes contentious. Now if they are wrong, surely TWP would have no issue with 1?

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will say it very softly and slowly so you understand S A L A R Y  C A P

However Harry, it is fair to say that we see quite a difference in standard of players across the league. With a couple of marquee players it is easy to see how a cashed up club would sign better quality NRL players than some of the weaker teams in SL. 

I don't think it is a controversial claim.

Warrington tend to sign bigger name players than London Broncos despite having the same cap.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

However Harry, it is fair to say that we see quite a difference in standard of players across the league. With a couple of marquee players it is easy to see how a cashed up club would sign better quality NRL players than some of the weaker teams in SL. 

I don't think it is a controversial claim.

Warrington tend to sign bigger name players than London Broncos despite having the same cap.

Ah but, the post I responded to was indicating wholesale changes to what to me is presently a TWP squad of mainly "surplus to requirement" SL quality player's, and the other thing that any team over the Atlantic will not be able to rely on for many many years is the development of it's own talent, they will not be able to take advantage of the Home Grown SC allowances, every player will have to be brought or shoukd that be bought in.

[sweaty craiq]

My understanding is that the travel arrangements offered to Champ clubs will not be accepted by SL ones who require to fly out earlier with better seats and stay in better facilities from which they can train. The second issue is for TW to adhere to the basic H/A type format and to force them to secure a facility able to cope with early season weather.