The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[TBone]

I’m not a fan of TWP but even I can see that LiVolsi is making a straight forward business propsition: TWP in SL (and a few other conditions?) is of value to him and he will make the following promises should that happen..., TWP outside SL, etc, has no value to him - over to you SLE/RFL.

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

He has no legal obligation to pay the players, the TU have openly said this.

He is NOT the owner of the club but is saying he will buy the club and pay the wages if you let us into SL21.

That is not blackmail, it is simply a business proposition from a prospective new owner.

Blackmail would be if they were in SL and he was using this strategy to keep themselves there.

What you are proposing he does is the equivalent of someone buying a business in administration and paying off all its debts. 

That is a nice idea but not how reality works.

There are a lot of very real pros and cons to Wolfpack, but you're out to lunch with this particular argument.

Nah. This isn't business. This is sport. And even if it were business, Toronto are selling nothing to the RFL that doesn't rely on trust.

The sport argument says pay your players.

The trust argument says pay your players.

Only the licking the boot argument says the players who play the game you profess to care about should be happy to be unpaid collateral damage.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Salford, Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield, and Hull are the clubs that want to scrap Toronto Wolfpack. This says it all, small time clubs holding the game back.

[Wildcat]

4 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Salford, Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield, and Hull are the clubs that want to scrap Toronto Wolfpack. This says it all, small time clubs holding the game back.

Sneery troll posts (yet again) from yourself don't do TWP's cause any good on here. Rationed and reasoned debate seems alien to you.

I'm almost convinced you are anti TWP, your division does their cause no good at all. 

[yipyee]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Nah. This isn't business. This is sport. And even if it were business, Toronto are selling nothing to the RFL that doesn't rely on trust.

The sport argument says pay your players.

The trust argument says pay your players.

Only the licking the boot argument says the players who play the game you profess to care about should be happy to be unpaid collateral damage.

It is a business, Sport is a business, players are employees with employment contracts pensions income tax etc...

If a company goes into administration employee wages are at risk, this proposition is no different to the process of any normal administration.

It's funny people expect different from Widnes who very recently went into administration actually formed a new company and carried on in the same league.. didnt get forced to start from league1

There are definitely biased people on here and it's quite sad

[PREPOSTEROUS]

26 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Salford, Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield, and Hull are the clubs that want to scrap Toronto Wolfpack. This says it all, small time clubs holding the game back.

I don't want to scrap them, Toronto are irrelevant to Trinity's future. That is their own destiny.  Continue as we are and we will be in the championship regardless0. 

In time, a big spending Toronto is more of a threat to the status quo at the top end of the table.

[gingerjon]

Just now, yipyee said:

It is a business, Sport is a business, players are employees with employment contracts pensions income tax etc...

If a company goes into administration employee wages are at risk, this proposition is no different to the process of any normal administration.

It's funny people expect different from Widnes who very recently went into administration actually formed a new company and carried on in the same league.. didnt get forced to start from league1

There are definitely biased people on here and it's quite sad

Deducted 12 points? That Widnes?

How many times were players not paid in that process?

[yipyee]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Deducted 12 points? That Widnes?

How many times were players not paid in that process?

You tell me, did the new owner come in and pay them by any chance? Would they have been paid if the club didnt reform?

London did the same in SL and stayed in SL

Sad sad biased people who cant see past their noses

[PREPOSTEROUS]

6 minutes ago, yipyee said:

You tell me, did the new owner come in and pay them by any chance? Would they have been paid if the club didnt reform?

London did the same in SL and stayed in SL

Sad sad biased people who cant see past their noses

Have Toronto gone into administration?

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Sad sad biased people who cant see past their noses

You're good at this. Convincing anyone.

But, anyway, London was fifteen years ago and, I write this as a London supporter, utterly ridiculous. I was glad from an entirely selfish point of view it worked out how it did but, ultimately, it set in train the rushed failure that was Quins RL and the many subsequent problems. The rules were sorted out subsequently.

Widnes and others have been docked competition points. Twelve seems to be the starting point. If Toronto start next season in Super League then, by recent example, they should start at -12.

As for paying players. I am still struggling to understand supposed rugby league fans who think this should be an optional extra. Widnes, in the example above, found ways to ensure players were paid.

Still, I'm sure all good business make it clear that their drones will only be paid if the owner is feeling happy and there should be no expectation otherwise.

[PREPOSTEROUS]

Point to make, had Beaumont said something similar, how much stick would he get? 

[Robin Evans]

35 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Point to make, had Beaumont said something similar, how much stick would he get? 

As one former user of this forum pointed out last night, its not that long ago Fev had a major shareholder spending money right left and centre.

Campbell reigned him in or fev would have been sunk. 

Pitchforks would have been sharpened.

[Man of Kent]

Could LiVolsi not make a token player payment now as a goodwill gesture? Perhaps some grooming gear? 

[Tommygilf]

40 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Point to make, had Beaumont said something similar, how much stick would he get? 

He did, except his reason wasn't a global pandemic it was his team finishing outside the top 4. And he's still here.

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

We're not that desperate for a pseudo Canadian club based in Manchester. 

[Dave T]

I do have some sympathy for the potential owner's position here. But this position of indirectly publicising the player wage position is misguided. Trying to make this a key part of the decision for the league is distasteful, particularly when one of the demands is to give the owner £1.8m. We shouldn't be using player wages as a pawn in this, and that shouldn't be a factor in the decision on TWP. 

However he isn't the owner and isn't liable, Argyle is the scumbag here. 

[Derwent]

4 hours ago, TBone said:

I’m not a fan of TWP but even I can see that LiVolsi is making a straight forward business propsition: TWP in SL (and a few other conditions?) is of value to him and he will make the following promises should that happen..., TWP outside SL, etc, has no value to him - over to you SLE/RFL.

So using your logic if Toronto were ever to suffer relegation then the club would have no value to him outside of SL and he’d walk away. He either wants the club warts and all or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t then goodbye and good riddance.

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Derwent said:

So using your logic if Toronto were ever to suffer relegation then the club would have no value to him outside of SL and he’d walk away. He either wants the club warts and all or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t then goodbye and good riddance.

This is the main thing that makes me nervous about the new owner.

If his demand is that TWP have open access to SL through P&R like everyone else, that is cool, but if it is just SL and nothing else that won't work. 

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is the main thing that makes me nervous about the new owner.

If his demand is that TWP have open access to SL through P&R like everyone else, that is cool, but if it is just SL and nothing else that won't work. 

Then prevent NY and Ottawa now and make a real statement of intent!

[Harry Stottle]

36 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Then prevent NY and Ottawa now and make a real statement of intent!

At the moment we have P&R precisley what statement should be made Oxy, along the lines of "Under no circumstances will any club ever be awarded preferential treatment over and above any other club in the same competitions" that I will most certainly agree with.

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Then prevent NY and Ottawa now and make a real statement of intent!

We shouldn't be afraid of making the decision either way. But a decision and plan should be made. We can't make a decision for today and worry about SL when that comes. We have seen that doesn't work. 

[Gooleboy]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is the main thing that makes me nervous about the new owner.

If his demand is that TWP have open access to SL through P&R like everyone else, that is cool, but if it is just SL and nothing else that won't work. 

By saying its SL only, but I will pay the wages outstanding, if SL don't let them in they are the bad guys. If they are let back in he should accept P&R. After the previous regime, you can understand if SL want certain assurances before they make a decision.

[ATLANTISMAN]

I am really torn on this one and I think a balance needs to be found.

As much as I understand the merits of franchising in this day and age we have to have a pathway for progressive clubs to enter Super League which brings me back to the Super 8,s .

Either that or maybe a conference system and increase the number of teams with a 4 yearly timeframe to increase clubs by 2 (1 in each conference) based on criteria this leaves the door open long term.

Bottom line is for the game to grow London has to be in and also Toulouse for France outside of the current 12 apart from these 2 I only see Leigh as being able to apply and maybe Bradford down the line.

16 teams (2 conferences of this also leaves the door open for Ottawa and New York which I personally think (New York) is maybe a bit of a dream (Maybe wrong but just my feeling)

 

Paul

 

 

[Big Picture]

11 hours ago, SL17 said:

His call is for SL?? Will he support TWP if they are placed in L1??

I quoted so you can read it.

No he won't, he's already that it's SL or bust.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I do have some sympathy for the potential owner's position here. But this position of indirectly publicising the player wage position is misguided. Trying to make this a key part of the decision for the league is distasteful, particularly when one of the demands is to give the owner £1.8m. We shouldn't be using player wages as a pawn in this, and that shouldn't be a factor in the decision on TWP. 

However he isn't the owner and isn't liable, Argyle is the scumbag here. 

 But that’s £1.8M Toronto should already have, with it they’d still be playing and paying players. How many other Super League clubs could pay their players wages without the sky money?