The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T 18,674]

Just now, Scubby said:

Also, they will have to give their bonus (Wolfpack) share of the TV money back to any club they want to fill the 12th spot. 

Contrary to popular belief, SL clubs clearly have no issues with splitting the money 12 ways. Some years they have even done it 14 ways. And they even throw some towards the championship. Hell, even France gets some! 

It is quite clear that TWP haven't been trusted for a while. This won't help that. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield 2,470]

50 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Thursday 16 July.............Toronto give firm assurances that they WILL take place in the revised Super League competition.

Monday 20 July ..............Toronto announce they will not be taking part in the revised Super League competition.

 

Toronto's repeated assurances have proved worthless and have resulted in enormous problems and costs for other Super League teams. Had they come clean 3 months ago there might have been some understanding now there is no option but to demote them at least one division.

David Argyle's comments suggests he knows this and at that point I fully expect he will announce the formal end of Toronto Wolfpack.

What happened over those 4 days? 

Toronto were told they would have no access to the RFL bailout fund after their request for 1.25% of the funding was turned down.

Toronto find out they will be expected to pay additional fees to play games at UK grounds despite taking no income from these games.

How could Toronto continue in 2020 on those terms?

[Scubby 12,348]

Just now, Neutralfan7 said:

Half the championship clubs are part time mind 

But take home games/crowds away and they are stuffed. RL is a hand to mouth sport. Warriors were also in the #### in the NRL. Guess what? The NRL forked out millions to make sure the competition had its integrity. We can't have it both ways. If you leave it to individual businesses, they will make individual calls on their business sadly.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield 2,470]

50 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Thursday 16 July.............Toronto give firm assurances that they WILL take place in the revised Super League competition.

Monday 20 July ..............Toronto announce they will not be taking part in the revised Super League competition.

 

Toronto's repeated assurances have proved worthless and have resulted in enormous problems and costs for other Super League teams. Had they come clean 3 months ago there might have been some understanding now there is no option but to demote them at least one division.

David Argyle's comments suggests he knows this and at that point I fully expect he will announce the formal end of Toronto Wolfpack.

What happened over those 4 days? 

Toronto were told they would have no access to the RFL bailout fund after their request for 1.25% of the funding was turned down.

Toronto find out they will be expected to pay additional fees to play games at UK grounds despite taking no income from these games.

How could Toronto continue in 2020 on those terms?

[Scubby 12,348]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Contrary to popular belief, SL clubs clearly have no issues with splitting the money 12 ways. Some years they have even done it 14 ways. And they even throw some towards the championship. Hell, even France gets some! 

It is quite clear that TWP haven't been trusted for a while. This won't help that. 

They have rarely been in a position where the money has gone the moment it hits the bank though? Had the likes of Salford, Wakefield and Hull KR not had this extra share this time, there would probably be no return to SL in August.

[The Rocket 1,539]

12 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Its all going to work out in the end....I don't mind going back into Championship or League 1....there will still be a big draw in Toronto and we can still watch RL.  We will survive and then thrive...it all takes time.

I hope so to mate .

[Dave T 18,674]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

What happened over those 4 days? 

Toronto were told they would have no access to the RFL bailout fund after their request for 1.25% of the funding was turned down.

Toronto find out they will be expected to pay additional fees to play games at UK grounds despite taking no income from these games.

How could Toronto continue in 2020 on those terms?

Read Bob Hunter's interview a few pages back. He explains the sequencing. 

Whether you believe it is another thing, but basically this boils down to cash flow. None coming in, plenty going out. They were hoping for investment to cover wages, it didn't come. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield 2,470]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Contrary to popular belief, SL clubs clearly have no issues with splitting the money 12 ways. Some years they have even done it 14 ways. And they even throw some towards the championship. Hell, even France gets some! 

It is quite clear that TWP haven't been trusted for a while. This won't help that. 

So why won’t they give Toronto a share?

Why are they so desperate to make them go it alone even though no club has ever done this before? 

Toronto are not asking for anything special, just the same terms as all the UK and French clubs.

[Neutralfan7 101]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But take home games/crowds away and they are stuffed. RL is a hand to mouth sport. Warriors were also in the #### in the NRL. Guess what? The NRL forked out millions to make sure the competition had its integrity. We can't have it both ways. If you leave it to individual businesses, they will make individual calls on their business sadly.

True mate. I dont know whats going on at TWP but its worrying times for them. They didn't have the biggest of squads and with Kay leaving and rumors that SBW and Watkins are next then thats another worry for them!

[Dave T 18,674]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

They have rarely been in a position where the money has gone the moment it hits the bank though? Had the likes of Salford, Wakefield and Hull KR not had this extra share this time, there would probably be no return to SL in August.

Nonsense. It was c130k extra, and would have been taken into account with the rest of the (huge) losses. 

[Tommygilf 7,985]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Also, they will have to give their bonus (Wolfpack) share of the TV money back to any club they want to fill the 12th spot. 

I definitely think thats where the sky rebate is going to come from.

[Scubby 12,348]

Just now, Dave T said:

Nonsense. It was c130k extra, and would have been taken into account with the rest of the (huge) losses. 

Wakefield have just had to cut wages by 15-20% (some of these guys are already on peanuts). Without that extra money (which was not budgeted for as another club could have been promoted), that might have tipped them over the edge. Salford too. 

[Dave T 18,674]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

So why won’t they give Toronto a share?

Why are they so desperate to make them go it alone even though no club has ever done this before? 

Toronto are not asking for anything special, just the same terms as all the UK and French clubs.

I've given my take on this plenty of times. We get around 30m for example from Sky. As a game we decide to spend that on UK (and French), RL. 

By routing 2m per year to Canada you are moving money out of the British game. That isn't necessarily an issue, but when a) there is no strategic development in Canada, and b) they clearly don't trust Argyle then it makes you consider where to spend money. 

SL have never embarked on Canadian expansion, and Elstone doesn't believe there is a pot of gold waiting there, SLE have said basically they won't route money from the British game to Canada. That may be short sighted, but there is an argument that the UK game can't afford to spend 2m a year on Canada. Personally, getting someone else to pay it is very good business sense. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield 2,470]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Wakefield have just had to cut wages by 15-20% (some of these guys are already on peanuts). Without that extra money (which was not budgeted for as another club could have been promoted), that might have tipped them over the edge. Salford too. 

The pay cut is more than that. Carter has quoted their pay cut as between 11% and 16% of net pay. Most players pay 40% income tax + national insurance + pension contributions before they get to net pay. The pay cut is more like 25% to 30%.

[Harry Stottle 4,369]

21 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Bye...

See ya.

But the Championship won't survive without those from the better supported clubs, with due respect London are not one of those do you will do just fine.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Harry Stottle

[Dave T 18,674]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Wakefield have just had to cut wages by 15-20% (some of these guys are already on peanuts). Without that extra money (which was not budgeted for as another club could have been promoted), that might have tipped them over the edge. Salford too. 

There are loads of variables, I'm not sure why you keep saying this is down to coronavirus (which frees TWP of blame) but then want to bash the UK game for the central funding point. 

You can't have it both ways mate. If you are going to target some of the clubs you are, then don't be peed off when people get fed up of TWP and highlight the long list of mistakes they have made. 

[Omott91 863]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Bradford started on Negative Points in the Championship.

Sorry, that's what I meant with the -.

[Scubby 12,348]

Just now, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The pay cut is more than that. Carter has quoted their pay cut as between 11% and 16% of net pay. Most players pay 40% income tax + national insurance + pension contributions before they get to net pay. The pay cut is more like 25% to 30%.

Some of these kids in the squad will be paying Carter before the season is out. They are barely on minimum wage as they probably are not contracted for 38 hours per week.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield 2,470]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've given my take on this plenty of times. We get around 30m for example from Sky. As a game we decide to spend that on UK (and French), RL. 

By routing 2m per year to Canada you are moving money out of the British game. That isn't necessarily an issue, but when a) there is no strategic development in Canada, and b) they clearly don't trust Argyle then it makes you consider where to spend money. 

SL have never embarked on Canadian expansion, and Elstone doesn't believe there is a pot of gold waiting there, SLE have said basically they won't route money from the British game to Canada. That may be short sighted, but there is an argument that the UK game can't afford to spend 2m a year on Canada. Personally, getting someone else to pay it is very good business sense. 

156 pages on here, most hits on total RL ever, decent sky tv ratings when Toronto are on, SBW in Super League, and your saying Toronto are not worth as much to Super League as Wakefield and Salford? 

Its not good business sense refusing Toronto an equal share because it results in them leaving the game and been replaced by a similar club to Wakefield and Salford.

[Scubby 12,348]

Just now, Dave T said:

There are loads of variables, I'm not sure why you keep saying this is down to coronavirus (which frees TWP of blame) but then want to bash the UK game for the central funding point. 

You can't have it both ways mate. If you are going to target some of the clubs you are, then don't be peed off when people get fed up of TWP and highlight the long list of mistakes they have made. 

TWP are very much to blame IMO. Their model was vulnerable to being cocooned in the UK and then essentially commuting to Canada. So effectively it made their business seasonal. It has worked in the short term (and in the lower leagues) but it should have been the reverse model to grow the business so players, coaches, key staff etc. are accessible to the Canadian end much more.

The annoying part from my point of view is that SL was effectively given this extra dimension to its business for free (which created amazing publicity and excitement) and still wanted to treat it like dog ####. Umming and arrring in October before saying okay you can be promoted was a clear example of this. That is why the extra share of Sky money is important because all the clubs wanted to do was look at the short term fix rather than the long term benefits. Now they can't see that Toronto not being there in 2021 could cost them even more in future TV deals.

[wiganermike 325]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Here's a theory. 

Toronto knew relegation and promotion was off yesterday morning. 

Toronto knew the costs of playing with no home games whatsoever would be hugely costly. $3million Canadian is the figure.

Toronto also knew it needed a clearout of some of its squad - some players have been told to look elsewhere whereas some have been told they're required in 2021 but are free to find short term deals till the end of the season.

Toronto have called Super League's bluff and taken their chances. Super league will either have 11 teams only or 11 teams plus Toronto next year. It would cost TWP significant sums either way. Perhaps they're looking at Wigan Athletic and seeing how normal rules aren't being applied automatically and "extraordinary circumstances" are. 

I don't want to take this off topic but Latics may be talking of pleading extraordinary circumstance but there is no guarantee that they will succeed in reducing their points penalty. Also their situation is different, a new owner 4 weeks into their ownership deciding not to pay anymore and placing them in administration is the reason that Latics are in the situation they are. They are still competing and fighting their hardest too. I think you may be reading too much into it and doubt TWP have tried such a risky gambit.

As for the possibility of SL with 11 teams in 2021, I doubt it, even if TWP are demoted as a result of the withdrawal I would expect the RFL and SL will come up with some method by which to find a 12th club as 11 clubs would mean an end to the Magic Weekend (which they have already committed to and makes much needed money) as we can't have both an odd number of teams and rounds. Just like anything else during the rest of this pandemic the approach taken with the rest of the season is subject to possible change. If after due consideration it is decided to demote TWP and announced a month from now then it would be possible to either state that the winner of the Autumn Competition would now be eligible for promotion to SL due to the demotion or to announce a process for Championship clubs to put forward proposals for them to step up with one to be elevated by that process. Either of those could be completed by the end of the SL season giving the team being promoted time to sign players and otherwise prepare.

[gingerjon 16,915]

10 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

156 pages on here, most hits on total RL ever, decent sky tv ratings when Toronto are on, SBW in Super League, and your saying Toronto are not worth as much to Super League as Wakefield and Salford? 

Its not good business sense refusing Toronto an equal share because it results in them leaving the game and been replaced by a similar club to Wakefield and Salford.

The most important thing for rugby league in this country is next year's World Cup.

And that's had about five replies on it since the fixtures were confirmed earlier.

But that's what will excite people far more than club games ever will.

[Scubby 12,348]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

The most important thing for rugby league in this country is next year's World Cup.

And that's had about five replies on it since the fixtures were confirmed earlier.

But that's what will excite people far more than club games ever will.

Yep, the 2021 WC instead of being the cherry on top, has suddenly morphed into the single most important RL event in the last 25 years.

[Damien 13,232]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

See ya.

But the Championship won't survive without those from the better supported clubs, with due respect London are not one of those do you will do just fine.

Why wont it survive? All clubs need to do is live within their means. Currently clubs near the bottom of the table, some of which get pretty low crowds anyway, already survive on a fraction of the money that the clubs that finish towards the top of the table get.

[Tommygilf 7,985]

6 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

I don't want to take this off topic but Latics may be talking of pleading extraordinary circumstance but there is no guarantee that they will succeed in reducing their points penalty. Also their situation is different, a new owner 4 weeks into their ownership deciding not to pay anymore and placing them in administration is the reason that Latics are in the situation they are. They are still competing and fighting their hardest too. I think you may be reading too much into it and doubt TWP have tried such a risky gambit.

As for the possibility of SL with 11 teams in 2021, I doubt it, even if TWP are demoted as a result of the withdrawal I would expect the RFL and SL will come up with some method by which to find a 12th club as 11 clubs would mean an end to the Magic Weekend (which they have already committed to and makes much needed money) as we can't have both an odd number of teams and rounds. Just like anything else during the rest of this pandemic the approach taken with the rest of the season is subject to possible change. If after due consideration it is decided to demote TWP and announced a month from now then it would be possible to either state that the winner of the Autumn Competition would now be eligible for promotion to SL due to the demotion or to announce a process for Championship clubs to put forward proposals for them to step up with one to be elevated by that process. Either of those could be completed by the end of the SL season giving the team being promoted time to sign players and otherwise prepare.

There is no guarantee of course, but I'd wager the reason the EFL have held off issuing judgement is because they don't want more clubs taking that option - suggesting Wigan likely could win.

I agree, we may see the "autumn comp" now given greater significance.