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17 minutes ago, Damien said:

That's not what I expected when I opened this thread anyway. 

The virus is changing everybody.

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Well... after 66 days in ICU my sister's fella who was described as being as near to death as can be without dying.... has made it. He's home. Half the fella he was.... and the virus has ravaged his l

I'm not putting up with this goading of a volunteer moderator who does a sterling job on my behalf generally on here, but especially recently when I was ill for almost a month with what might well hav

Well my sister's fella is making very small steps in the right direction. From being described as as near to death without being dead, he's now sat up, off dialysis and yesterday was breathing on

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13 hours ago, redjonn said:

so predictable... said when it was announced their be loads of journalists looking for fault... when the journalists point fingers its the actual ordinary people that work to create the capability.

All I can say is thank god it ain't my bank or someone like TSB that's doing the web site. As my bank is always having problems with its on line capability.

Anyway it didn't crash it stopped allowing people to book more time slots that didn't exist. you know just like the supermarket on line that we use does... until it free's up more time slots.

Mind you maybe should have got a supermarket to do it --- maybe not as they all had problems initially too.

I have lost faith in journalists whom probably have never had to do anything but just report on other people or organisations failures or success...

Yes, what they should really be challenging is the fact that Hancock has constantly been telling us that demand ain't high for these tests, hence they can't hit their targets yet surprise surprise as soon as it is made easier for people to register for tests there is demand. 

It's like the BBC putting an RL international on the red button and using the numbers as evidence that demand is low. 

But, once again, we do need to be careful not to spend our time bashing journos and holding them to higher account than our politicians. 

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9 hours ago, Saintslass said:

Which is why the government doesn't want to talk about the bloody exit strategy.  Thanks to the press the whole thing could go pear shaped.  They are just SO irresponsible.

Yes, the chart did show an uptick in car use, and the medic made a point of referring to it.

I'm afraid I just can't agree with that position. We can't avoid transparency and blame the media for that. The government's comms has been muddled, let's not put all that on the media, who at worst have been boring. 

The government can hold the position that they don't want to be transparent on this and will tell us when they see fit, that is a stance they can justify, its not one I support but they are well within their rights, but let's not use the media as an excuse for that. 

The reason I disagree with it is because the likes of Whitty and Vallance in particular are very loose lipped and they actually cause problems with some of their comments. Even this week I think it was Whitty who explained that we will have some form of measures in place until the end of the year. We'll, I'm sorry, you are either talking exit strategy or you aren't, because that is part of exit strategy. But vague enough to raise more questions and confuse people and make them anxious. 

Muddled communication is down to the government and advisors.

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27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm afraid I just can't agree with that position. We can't avoid transparency and blame the media for that. The government's comms has been muddled, let's not put all that on the media, who at worst have been boring. 

The government can hold the position that they don't want to be transparent on this and will tell us when they see fit, that is a stance they can justify, its not one I support but they are well within their rights, but let's not use the media as an excuse for that. 

The reason I disagree with it is because the likes of Whitty and Vallance in particular are very loose lipped and they actually cause problems with some of their comments. Even this week I think it was Whitty who explained that we will have some form of measures in place until the end of the year. We'll, I'm sorry, you are either talking exit strategy or you aren't, because that is part of exit strategy. But vague enough to raise more questions and confuse people and make them anxious. 

Muddled communication is down to the government and advisors.

Very succinctly put and saves me the bother of blustering my drivel to make the same point.

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16 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

don't be fooled by the mind games that we are in week 4 of lockdown, the pubs have now been shut for 5 weeks- no amount of announcement timing alters actual time 

On my walk yesterday I passed my local. The landlord was sat having a bottled beer in the beer garden. I shouted over " When are you opening again Simon ? "

He replied " Not before September at the earliest matey ".

The lock down is saving me a fortune.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I'm afraid I just can't agree with that position. We can't avoid transparency and blame the media for that. The government's comms has been muddled, let's not put all that on the media, who at worst have been boring. 

I read an interesting point just now that I'm as a guilty of as anyone.

People will say they have no trust in 'the media' - and they will say this when asked - yet will have some groups within that that they do trust and trust probably more than they should.

The classic one we all know is people in America who will say they don't trust media elites but will then believe everything Fox tells them.

Meanwhile, I get grumpy about 'the media' whilst tracking stories on the FT.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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20 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I read an interesting point just now that I'm as a guilty of as anyone.

People will say they have no trust in 'the media' - and they will say this when asked - yet will have some groups within that that they do trust and trust probably more than they should.

The classic one we all know is people in America who will say they don't trust media elites but will then believe everything Fox tells them.

Meanwhile, I get grumpy about 'the media' whilst tracking stories on the FT.

Normally when people say they do not trust the media, they think they are brilliant at critical thinking. In reality, it means the shop around to find what agrees with them.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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Germany has reported an increase in Covid19 cases,and deaths.

May not be a good time to restart the Bundesliga.

This,of course,after some of the the great and good,(Guardian journalists) informed us how far ahead the Germans were when it came to Coronavirus.

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Cool. I'm going to increase the number of my friends by an order of magnitude....although some I choose might not be that happy ?

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The landlord and landlady of the local will be in my list. ?

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40 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Germany has reported an increase in Covid19 cases,and deaths.

May not be a good time to restart the Bundesliga.

This,of course,after some of the the great and good,(Guardian journalists) informed us how far ahead the Germans were when it came to Coronavirus.

Think we have to accept that thing won’t go back to normal until we find a cure or an effective treatment

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yes, what they should really be challenging is the fact that Hancock has constantly been telling us that demand ain't high for these tests, hence they can't hit their targets yet surprise surprise as soon as it is made easier for people to register for tests there is demand. 

It's like the BBC putting an RL international on the red button and using the numbers as evidence that demand is low. 

But, once again, we do need to be careful not to spend our time bashing journos and holding them to higher account than our politicians. 

maybe but I guess first task is to create the capability. It seems they are doing so. We can argue it was slow etc... but to get to the capability is an achievement as many said it couldn't be done..

Obviously not sufficient just having the capability and for sure questions should be asked about how going to ensure usage of the tests... or if in order to achieve usage we are just filling the testing just to make use of... as distinct from a logical rational as whom is being tested and why.

I have no problem holding politicians to account, especially in an informed debate/discussion.  In the main the questioning at press conference is merely sound bite stuff either looking for a sensational headline or to front a news item slot with the question from their own journalist even where the question is merely a repeat of another journalist.   

Objective searching questions have been very rare.  

 

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2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Cool. I'm going to increase the number of my friends by an order of magnitude....although some I choose might not be that happy ?

_111932253_dm.jpg

I think this must be one of those "let's leak it and see how it flies" things.

I've seen a couple of comments today saying that this will do nothing but make the majority happy at the expense of the minority. For example, lonely people, older folk with few friends/family left and so on, it'll just increase their feelings of worthlessness if they can't add 10 people to the list, or are blocked because the people they'd like to add to it are already at their maximum number of households/friends.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I tend to believe it because this is classic bread and circuses stuff. 

The NHS seems to be coping. In fact they are worried that there aren’t enough patients in general (ie for other diseases than Covid). Play on!

You do realise that over 100 frontline healthcare workers have given their lives fighting this virus.

Your idiotic Play on statement sums you up perfectly,totally clueless with no grasp of reality.

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I read an interesting point just now that I'm as a guilty of as anyone.

People will say they have no trust in 'the media' - and they will say this when asked - yet will have some groups within that that they do trust and trust probably more than they should.

The classic one we all know is people in America who will say they don't trust media elites but will then believe everything Fox tells them.

Meanwhile, I get grumpy about 'the media' whilst tracking stories on the FT.

yes we all have some form of bias, many of us hidden aspects, especially if we instantly respond often without a analyses or some underlying strategic intent behind a story or position offered by say a politician.

e.g. At press conf the other day with the senior military commander outlining the army's involvement. In particular PPE logistics.  I assume this was to help take the heat away from PPE logistics as its harder to criticise  a organisation that holds wide respect.  So when he/they say its unprecedented we listen more... and means when we criticise we critising them when it comes to logistical problems. 

So then you focus your criticism on preparedness, knowing that we had huge stockpiles.  

Of course others area's to pick on with PPE but it helps narrow were to focus criticism where you think you can better defend.

e.g. when somebody says following scientific advice. It's hard to critise where their is a general consensus in the scientific community.  So you have to undermine whether its really scientific advice but rather  the advice is being massaged by some advisors. 

Of course it could just be simple without thought comment. Never-the-less theirs is strategic intent often....

The key is analyse and thoughtful thinking, which most of us don't make an effort with.

 

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15 minutes ago, redjonn said:

maybe but I guess first task is to create the capability. It seems they are doing so. We can argue it was slow etc... but to get to the capability is an achievement as many said it couldn't be done..

Obviously not sufficient just having the capability and for sure questions should be asked about how going to ensure usage of the tests... or if in order to achieve usage we are just filling the testing just to make use of... as distinct from a logical rational as whom is being tested and why.

I have no problem holding politicians to account, especially in an informed debate/discussion.  In the main the questioning at press conference is merely sound bite stuff either looking for a sensational headline or to front a news item slot with the question from their own journalist even where the question is merely a repeat of another journalist.   

Objective searching questions have been very rare.  

 

I actually think that the media questions part of the conference should be cut off and pushed to the news channels tbh, its how they are in Scotland. The questions from the media can relate to articles they are doing or for clarification on certain points, this isn't PMQ's and ultimately they can ask what suits their publication/channel. Because of that they are not often asking stuff that may interest many of us. It's why I think parliament is important in this process and we should stop giving air time on BBC One to a softly-softly Q&A that isn't probing and comes across as no more than propoganda. The only need this serves is the journos who need certain answers, and ultimately that's what it is for. It's then up to us to read or watch those sources. And they certainly don't need to be objective. 

On the testing capacity, I agree, and my issue is with the lies that come out of Hancock's mouth when he gets defensive. The demand was there, they weren't providing the tests through channels that would meet the demand. It appears they have drastically stepped up capacity, it will be interesting to see the ramp up this week, as he has set himself a clear target that he can't now lie about like he did with his 25k target. 

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1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

Normally when people say they do not trust the media, they think they are brilliant at critical thinking. In reality, it means the shop around to find what agrees with them.

The thing is that there is very little in the way of impartial journalism these days. Everything is an opinion piece. It’s only natural that people will read the things that affirm their own opinion.

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I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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16 minutes ago, ckn said:

I think this must be one of those "let's leak it and see how it flies" things.

I've seen a couple of comments today saying that this will do nothing but make the majority happy at the expense of the minority. For example, lonely people, older folk with few friends/family left and so on, it'll just increase their feelings of worthlessness if they can't add 10 people to the list, or are blocked because the people they'd like to add to it are already at their maximum number of households/friends.

I was talking about this option a few days ago, so I think another country is doing it as I must have read about it. 

In reality though as people's lists of 10 can't all be the same, you are ultimately going to be exposed to dozens of people, plus some of those will be working, going to supermarkets etc. It may be a reduction in contact for many, but maybe not in reality. 

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A thought provoking article by Sky on next steps for the country

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-will-government-accept-a-level-of-death-to-get-uk-going-again-11977931

I just don't see how social distancing is possible with a return to daily life. People already struggle to deal with this in supermarkets, when i go out for a walk. Commuting on public transport is incompatable, a lot of workplaces either have large open plan offices or manufacturing plants at close quarters, together with enclosed environments in restaurants and shopping malls. Remember the lockdown and social distancing was only brought in to flatten the curve and prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. Finding the balance is going to be tricky but one thing is for sure, governments cannot afford for the economies to continue to be obliterated both from a financial, human and societal impact.

Whilst I can quite conceive games behind locked doors for sometime, is the return of physical sport any higher risk than being in open plan offices, trains, planes or restaurants that will have to reopen in the coming months

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12 minutes ago, Derwent said:

The thing is that there is very little in the way of impartial journalism these days. Everything is an opinion piece. It’s only natural that people will read the things that affirm their own opinion.

I have to say this is why I found myself reading (and paying for) the FT and Economist. Most of it is not opinion and that which is is clearly marked. It helps but isn’t essential that on many - but definitely not all - issues we have similar beliefs even if they are more trusting of business than I will ever be. (For similar reasons, in normal times, I listen to the World Servic news in preference to anything else).

I’ve pretty much given up on the sites that are filled with opinion-havers-for-coin.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

A thought provoking article by Sky on next steps for the country

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-will-government-accept-a-level-of-death-to-get-uk-going-again-11977931

I just don't see how social distancing is possible with a return to daily life. People already struggle to deal with this in supermarkets, when i go out for a walk. Commuting on public transport is incompatable, a lot of workplaces either have large open plan offices or manufacturing plants at close quarters, together with enclosed environments in restaurants and shopping malls. Remember the lockdown and social distancing was only brought in to flatten the curve and prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. Finding the balance is going to be tricky but one thing is for sure, governments cannot afford for the economies to continue to be obliterated both from a financial, human and societal impact.

Whilst I can quite conceive games behind locked doors for sometime, is the return of physical sport any higher risk than being in open plan offices, trains, planes or restaurants that will have to reopen in the coming months

True, the lock down wasn't to stop any one ever getting Covid 19 again. It was as you say to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. 

Someone needs to move first, as if people want to wait until Christmas than alot of sporting clubs just won't exist anymore. 

There will never be a time when people aren't going to be safe entirely, but at some point we have measure a risk/reward balance. 

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9 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

A thought provoking article by Sky on next steps for the country

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-will-government-accept-a-level-of-death-to-get-uk-going-again-11977931

I just don't see how social distancing is possible with a return to daily life. People already struggle to deal with this in supermarkets, when i go out for a walk. Commuting on public transport is incompatable, a lot of workplaces either have large open plan offices or manufacturing plants at close quarters, together with enclosed environments in restaurants and shopping malls. Remember the lockdown and social distancing was only brought in to flatten the curve and prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed. Finding the balance is going to be tricky but one thing is for sure, governments cannot afford for the economies to continue to be obliterated both from a financial, human and societal impact.

Whilst I can quite conceive games behind locked doors for sometime, is the return of physical sport any higher risk than being in open plan offices, trains, planes or restaurants that will have to reopen in the coming months

I think there's going to be different geographic scenarios too. London and the wider London commuting area is different to the rest of the UK - both in terms of scale and density of commuters.

How the phased restart comes about is going to be another thing with differences in opinion and no real clear answer. Its extremely reliant upon public adherence to guidance and rules as Sweden and the USA have contrastingly shown.

The point about flattening the curve is essential, its about making sure the hospital admissions are manageable.

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

I think this must be one of those "let's leak it and see how it flies" things.

I've seen a couple of comments today saying that this will do nothing but make the majority happy at the expense of the minority. For example, lonely people, older folk with few friends/family left and so on, it'll just increase their feelings of worthlessness if they can't add 10 people to the list, or are blocked because the people they'd like to add to it are already at their maximum number of households/friends.

Be interesting to see how such a scenario would be enforced/monitored. 10 is probably a number plucked out of the air that 'they' think will be acceptable to most, a bit like the 5 fruit and veg a day.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

....

On the testing capacity, I agree, and my issue is with the lies that come out of Hancock's mouth when he gets defensive. The demand was there, they weren't providing the tests through channels that would meet the demand. It appears they have drastically stepped up capacity, it will be interesting to see the ramp up this week, as he has set himself a clear target that he can't now lie about like he did with his 25k target. 

Just on the testing, and ignoring any goals set for current testing and whether achieve or not.

I would have thought the purpose is to help with lifting of restrictions. That is the Test, Track, & Trace not so much about how many we test now or on April 30th. All be it is an opportunity to question/hold to account over hitting targets. Never-the-less the broader aspect is that we can Test, Track and Test so we don't have to go into any sort of cross UK lock-down again.

That is we need to continue to increase capability beyond 100k and more locally to enable us to live with the virus in our midst for a good while.

 

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38 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The germans are miles ahead of us. 

After all, It can be true that the Germans are far ahead of us *and* that lots of Germans will still die.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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