The Rugby League GOAT

[Scubby]

Cameron Smith has been pretty much the best player on the field game in, game out (at any level he's played) for 10-15 years. He often tops the tackle count, kicks goals at 80% and is right up there on try assists. He hardly misses games, he is the captain and he can play half back and hooker at the same time (in the same game). He is the greatest player the game has seen from my point of view.

There have been faster and more skilful players over the years. That doesn't make them the greatest.

[graveyard johnny]

David KIDwell

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Cameron Smith has been pretty much the best player on the field game in, game out (at any level he's played) for 10-15 years. He often tops the tackle count, kicks goals at 80% and is right up there on try assists. He hardly misses games, he is the captain and he can play half back and hooker at the same time (in the same game). He is the greatest player the game has seen from my point of view.

There have been faster and more skilful players over the years. That doesn't make them the greatest.

One thing I found interesting was in terms of individual awards, he was the Aussie player of the year on only 2 occasions, and Golden Boot on two occasions. I know that is a great effort, but it doesn't suggest he has been the best player during his whole career. In football for example Messi and Ronaldo have won the Ballon d'Or 11 times between them. 

I often grumble about the fact that we tend to celebrate hard endeavour over many other skills in RL, and I think the Cameron Smith worship is a reflection of this. 

[Marauder]

Different times, different asks, how about factoring in the players around these great players who together made it easier for the star to shine, how about the great players who became great whilst playing along side mediocre players.

I personally think it's to hard to pick one.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

One thing I found interesting was in terms of individual awards, he was the Aussie player of the year on only 2 occasions, and Golden Boot on two occasions. I know that is a great effort, but it doesn't suggest he has been the best player during his whole career. In football for example Messi and Ronaldo have won the Ballon d'Or 11 times between them. 

I often grumble about the fact that we tend to celebrate hard endeavour over many other skills in RL, and I think the Cameron Smith worship is a reflection of this. 

That's because you are a miserable grumbly sod!  

Hanley is the best player I have ever seen. Smith is the greatest player of all time. 

[Maximus Decimus]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think this is an important point. Cameron Smith is clearly an outstanding player, but I genuinely can't help but feel his ability is overstated, in a way that Aussies are good doing with some of their players. Smith is a very good player, very tough, very consistent and a hell of a leader. He chooses the right play the vast majority of times. They are very good traits, but then I think Ellery Hanley had all these traits, plus he was able to do stuff that Cameron Smith could only dream about.

From players in my lifetime I would be looking at the likes of Ellery Hanley and Wally Lewis.

I don't know enough about the likes of Wally Lewis, a bit before my time to really be able to judge.

When Widnes were still a SL club, in some mythical universe if it'd been announced that we'd signed Smith I'd have been excited but not that excited. Certainly much less excited than probably at least 10 other players I could've named. I think if you're talking about the GOAT, their ability should be more than that of being able to demonstrate a consistent high-level across a long period. Without going too Simon Cowell, they also need that X Factor, they need that YouTube highlights reel that has you shaking your head in wonder. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I don't know enough about the likes of Wally Lewis, a bit before my time to really be able to judge.

When Widnes were still a SL club, in some mythical universe if it'd been announced that we'd signed Smith I'd have been excited but not that excited. Certainly much less excited than probably at least 10 other players I could've named. I think if you're talking about the GOAT, their ability should be more than that of being able to demonstrate a consistent high-level across a long period. Without going too Simon Cowell, they also need that X Factor, they need that YouTube highlights reel that has you shaking your head in wonder. 

Yes, I think this hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Scubby said:

That's because you are a miserable grumbly sod!  

Hanley is the best player I have ever seen. Smith is the greatest player of all time. 

Have you never seen Smith? 

[Maximus Decimus]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

That's because you are a miserable grumbly sod!  

Hanley is the best player I have ever seen. Smith is the greatest player of all time. 

I suppose the wider question, and another reason why picking a GOAT is so difficult, is whether high-level consistency over a long period constitutes greatness over brilliance over a shorter period. I would argue that it should be a contributing factor, but not that it should overrule it. Had Martin Offiah had a career ending injury in 1991, he'd still be spoken of as one of the best players we've ever seen. Had Smith had one in 2010, he'd be a footnote. 

For instance, if you were to ask me who I would rather have in my dream team, Benji Marshall during his peak years or Cameron Smith. I would pick Marshall every time. 

I think when you look at the GOAT in other sports (Brady, Jordan, Ronaldo/Messi) these things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Have you never seen Smith? 

It probably wasn't very memorable 

[Scubby]

Just now, Dave T said:

Have you never seen Smith? 

Yes Hanley is the best I have seen (as in Jimmy White is the best snooker player I have seen). Smith is the GOAT (as in Stephen Hendry is the greatest snooker player of all time).

[Scubby]

6 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It probably wasn't very memorable 

The first time I saw him he scored the try and kicked the goal in the last minute to save Australia from an embarrassing loss to the Kiwis at Harlequins. That was something like 12 years ago.

[Eddie]

24 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I don't know enough about the likes of Wally Lewis, a bit before my time to really be able to judge.

When Widnes were still a SL club, in some mythical universe if it'd been announced that we'd signed Smith I'd have been excited but not that excited. Certainly much less excited than probably at least 10 other players I could've named. I think if you're talking about the GOAT, their ability should be more than that of being able to demonstrate a consistent high-level across a long period. Without going too Simon Cowell, they also need that X Factor, they need that YouTube highlights reel that has you shaking your head in wonder. 

Likewise I expect Smith looks back on his career ruefully, and wonders how he never played for Widnes. 

[Man of Kent]

Ellery.

Smith is a great player but saying he’s the GOAT is a bit like picking a goalie as football or wicketkeeper as cricket GOAT. 

[DavidM]

Watchability and entertainment must be a factor . Ellery was great to watch , Smith isn’t , he’s clinical and measured but  he annoys me and I don’t like him . I’d rather watch Ellery , Andrew Johns , Brett Kenny even Billy Slater . Guys who put you on the edge of your seat . Other than that picking the greatest player of all time is subjective , good pub crack but really pretty pointless . Suffice to say we’ve produced some stellar talent through history and no doubt always will . 

[Derwent]

Most coaches would probably rate Smith as the best simply because he is a player that implemented game plans superbly. He wasn’t a spectacular player capable of moments of awe but he often dictated the tone and tempo of a game to suit his team perfectly. His influence in games was immense.

So from that point of view he is a very good shout for being the greatest ever.

Who was the most skilful or most exciting or most entertaining are completely separate and more narrowly specific arguments. 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

Can’t really talk about players from ages ago, but Cooper Cronk was superb to watch. 

That's right.  Different eras are different.  For I stance Dave Bolton only recently passed away.

The other point is that beyond the idea of the greatest you can have the category (possibly more important) of the most iconic.

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

That's because you are a miserable grumbly sod!  

Hanley is the best player I have ever seen. Smith is the greatest player of all time. 

I think the best player I've seen is Bret Kenny.  But its difficult to really pin that down to be honest because in one game at Wigan I've also seen Wally Lewis (who pulled Australia up by the bootstraps in that game)  AND Mal Meninga.

[Spotty Herbert]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

Cameron Smith has been pretty much the best player on the field game in, game out (at any level he's played) for 10-15 years. He often tops the tackle count, kicks goals at 80% and is right up there on try assists. He hardly misses games, he is the captain and he can play half back and hooker at the same time (in the same game). He is the greatest player the game has seen from my point of view.

There have been faster and more skilful players over the years. That doesn't make them the greatest.

And he referees it at the same time as playing half back and hooker.

[Mr Frisky]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Sinfield mentioned in a discussion about the greatest RL player,really

Not the best player or even in the top 20 or 30 but a top top player and he would have been a superstar in the NRL.

Its Hanley by the way - what a player.

[Mumby Magic]

Yep I follow hitc too and saw this. Thought 23 was a bit big to go though. We could decipher and argue about other sports on AOB.

British and modern day is easily Ellery Hanley for me. Plus people forget he could kick goals. Another thread there. Might start it now

[Oldbear]

Hanley for me, he proved it in several positions, plus he proved it both in the NRL and on the international scene. Brett Kenney would probably be my runner up.

[Wigan Riversider]

54 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I think the best player I've seen is Bret Kenny.  But its difficult to really pin that down to be honest because in one game at Wigan I've also seen Wally Lewis (who pulled Australia up by the bootstraps in that game)  AND Mal Meninga.

Wigan v Australia 1986 when Hanley was injured

[PREPOSTEROUS]

Rangi Chase, Albert Kelly, they'll have a decent youtube highlights reel but are far from the greatest. I guess you need the consistency, delivering when it matters plus those breath taking plays all in one. 

 

Those players are few and far between. 

 

Best player I've seen is Lockyer, 2004 final still divided me as been gutted but also enjoying seeing a player at his peak. 

[Wigan Riversider]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

Yes Hanley is the best I have seen (as in Jimmy White is the best snooker player I have seen). Smith is the GOAT (as in Stephen Hendry is the greatest snooker player of all time).

Think Ronnie O'Sullivan dwarfs both