The Cornwall RLFC Thread

[OriginalMrC]

23 minutes ago, Damien said:

It does depend on the standard of players too. When WWR started out I don't think they had much money and didn't attract a high calibre of RU player. I'm not saying that Cornwall do have the means to do that but WWR seems to keep being trotted out as an example without any context.

WWR didn't have much money? Think you'd be surprised at their wage bill in comparison to other clubs! They have more than enough money.

WWR struggled because they massively underestimated how tough league 1 would be and had a side full of inexperienced players. They couldn't attract experienced players due to their location and still struggle to do so. 

They've only got better because most of their squad have got more experienced in league 1 and have a better understanding of what is required at that level.

Cornwall will be exactly the same unless they pull something out of the bag and recruit a load of experienced players in the next couple of months and pay them loads of money. The small caveat being that Cornwall is probably a more attractive place for potential players to live than Llanelli (no disrespect I'm sure it's lovely there too) 

[OriginalMrC]

3 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

They basically priced out Rangers asking for a 500,000 bond.  If Cornwall held the license I dont think they would of had a choice. 

Without wanting to derail the thread this is the same bond that other clubs were required to provide. It wasn't a case of pricing anyone out. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

WWR didn't have much money? Think you'd be surprised at their wage bill in comparison to other clubs! They have more than enough money.

WWR struggled because they massively underestimated how tough league 1 would be and had a side full of inexperienced players. They couldn't attract experienced players due to their location and still struggle to do so. 

They've only got better because most of their squad have got more experienced in league 1 and have a better understanding of what is required at that level.

Cornwall will be exactly the same unless they pull something out of the bag and recruit a load of experienced players in the next couple of months and pay them loads of money. The small caveat being that Cornwall is probably a more attractive place for potential players to live than Llanelli (no disrespect I'm sure it's lovely there too) 

WWR were formed over a decade ago. What they now have is quite different to what they had. In their first 5 years they moved from ground to ground and were even taken over by Wales Rugby League. Please don't pretend they had loads of money because they didn't.

[OriginalMrC]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

WWR were formed over a decade ago. What they now have is quite different to what they had. In their first 5 years they moved from ground to ground and were even taken over by Wales Rugby League. Please don't pretend they had loads of money because they didn't.

WWR entered league 1 in 2017 and their first full season was in 2018. They were an amateur club before that. The backers of WWR have poured significant funds into the club and it looks like they will continue to do so 

[Sammo]

17 hours ago, iffleyox said:

 

I would have been looking at any of Portsmouth, Reading, Norwich, Stoke, Derby - appreciate it's all pins in maps but I wouldn't start with Bristol or Cornwall.

Have seen Derby suggested a few times but don’t think it would work - there isn’t a suitable facility for a team attracting ~5k people. If I was looking at the East Midlands I’d go with Nottingham - Lady Bay would be ideal to start and could move up to the Notts County stadium if successful.

 

I went to university in Norwich and think there suffers from the same issue - I don’t know of any facilities other than the Canaries ground

[Damien]

1 minute ago, OriginalMrC said:

WWR entered league 1 in 2017 and their first full season was in 2018. They were an amateur club before that. The backers of WWR have poured significant funds into the club and it looks like they will continue to do so 

Oh so you are just going to ignore when they were known as South Wales. Convenient.

[OriginalMrC]

Just now, Damien said:

Oh so you are just going to ignore when they were known as South Wales. Convenient.

What?! South Wales and West Wales Raiders were/are completely different clubs with different owners. 

[ShropshireBull]

Yep people look at places but infrastructure you can :

a) scale b) commercially exploit and c) not be pushed out of is difficult. 

Its why the RFL is crazy not to have a team at the MRA.  

After that, you are really looking at either non league clubs who arent going to make FL so you can 3g it ( Telford) or RU clubs who you can dual code a stadium with  ( Plymouth, Rotherham)

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Oh so you are just going to ignore when they were known as South Wales. Convenient.

I think, depending on what point you want to make, it's possible to regard West Wales as either a continuation of the amateur side West Wales, a continuation of the semi professional side South Wales/Ironmen, or a elements of the two.

If we're going to categorically say the middle one then we really should say that Cornwall will be fine because they have their history as being Hemel Stags to fall back on.

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

What?! South Wales and West Wales Raiders were/are completely different clubs with different owners. 

Literally the owners of the West Wales amateur side took over South Wales Ironmen during the 2017 season. They finished out the remainder of the season as South Wales Ironmen but moved them to Llanelli. The following season they moved them to Llanelli permanently and rebranded them as West Wales Raiders.

[iffleyox]

16 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Yep people look at places but infrastructure you can :

a) scale b) commercially exploit and c) not be pushed out of is difficult. 

Its why the RFL is crazy not to have a team at the MRA.  

After that, you are really looking at either non league clubs who arent going to make FL so you can 3g it ( Telford) or RU clubs who you can dual code a stadium with  ( Plymouth, Rotherham)

I think the bold is a stretch - firstly Clifton Lane is many things, but it's not a 'stadium'; and secondly one of the many things it is is a cricket pitch whose outfield covers part of the rugby pitch. Dual code in Rotherham would mean pooling funds to either move to a new facility, or evict the cricket club.

[ShropshireBull]

4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

I think the bold is a stretch - firstly Clifton Lane is many things, but it's not a 'stadium'; and secondly one of the many things it is is a cricket pitch whose outfield covers part of the rugby pitch. Dual code in Rotherham would mean pooling funds to either move to a new facility, or evict the cricket club.

I know what Clinton lane is,  I am talking about Millmoor which sits empty with a convenant owned by Booths.  If it could be brought back into use then it would be ideal. 

[iffleyox]

4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I know what Clinton lane is,  I am talking about Millmoor which sits empty with a convenant owned by Booths.  If it could be brought back into use then it would be ideal. 

Fair - I thought that was long gone 

[OriginalMrC]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

Literally the owners of the West Wales amateur side took over South Wales Ironmen during the 2017 season. They finished out the remainder of the season as South Wales Ironmen but moved them to Llanelli. The following season they moved them to Llanelli permanently and rebranded them as West Wales Raiders.

Yes you've got the jist right but that's not exactly true:

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/50538/south-wales-ironmen-to-become-west-wales-raiders

So they are different clubs with different owners. Don't know what point you are trying to make. You said WWR had no money to bring players in when the reality is one thing they are not lacking is money. If they can afford to pay Rangi Chase 20-25k in league 1 I'd say they are pretty flush with cash! 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, OriginalMrC said:

Yes you've got the jist right but that's not exactly true:

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/50538/south-wales-ironmen-to-become-west-wales-raiders

So they are different clubs with different owners. Don't know what point you are trying to make. You said WWR had no money to bring players in when the reality is one thing they are not lacking is money. If they can afford to pay Rangi Chase 20-25k in league 1 I'd say they are pretty flush with cash! 

It literally says the following, which is what I said. West Wales wasn't a new club, it was a continuation of an existing professional club. They did not just start in 2018. It's not my fault you didn't realise that. Its akin to someone arguing that Midland Hurricanes will be a different club to Coventry Bears and ignoring what has happened before that name change:

South Wales Ironmen Rugby League Club have new owners after the Rugby Football League approved a takeover by Andrew Thorne, the owner of West Wales Raiders, along with the board of the Welsh Premier League club.

The new ownership means that the club will move to Llanelli’s Stebonheath Park with immediate effect and will play three games in the Kingstone Press League 1 Shield at the stadium before playing there permanently from the start of the 2018 Season under the West Wales Raiders name.

[OriginalMrC]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

It literally says the following, which is what I said. West Wales wasn't a new club, it was a continuation of an existing professional club. They did not just start in 2018. It's not my fault you didn't realise that. Its akin to someone arguing that Midland Hurricanes will be a different club to Coventry Bears and ignoring what has happened before that name change:

South Wales Ironmen Rugby League Club have new owners after the Rugby Football League approved a takeover by Andrew Thorne, the owner of West Wales Raiders, along with the board of the Welsh Premier League club.

The new ownership means that the club will move to Llanelli’s Stebonheath Park with immediate effect and will play three games in the Kingstone Press League 1 Shield at the stadium before playing there permanently from the start of the 2018 Season under the West Wales Raiders name.

I'm bored of arguing semantics, it's clear you are not going to agree. Literally everyone in this thread talking about WWR was talking about WWR, and NOT South Wales Scorpions/Ironmen. If you want to believe they are the same club with the same levels of finance, or that lack of finance was a factor in WWR getting beat by world record scores thats entirely up to you 

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

I'm bored of arguing semantics, it's clear you are not going to agree. Literally everyone in this thread talking about WWR was talking about WWR, and NOT South Wales Scorpions/Ironmen. If you want to believe they are the same club with the same levels of finance, or that lack of finance was a factor in WWR getting beat by world record scores thats entirely up to you 

West Wales did not have loads of money in their first year after the move. Just because you keep saying so doesn't make it true. They had a fair number of players that stayed at the club after the move who had played for South Wales. They had others of a similar level from lower level RU after other South Wales players bailed. There wasn't all this cash to spend on decent calibre RU players. That is the point, little changed and the situation certainly didn't improve and indeed got worse, and they still couldn't attract decent RU players because they did not have the money to do so.

The likes of Rangi Chase signing in 2021 and any money they now have is absolutely irrelevant to the situation in 2018 when they were getting beat by world record scores.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Damien

[tiffers]

I'm afraid I really have to challenge some of the thinking and conversations that have been happening on this thread.

It's obvious to everyone that it is a long way to travel from the M62. Its obvious the long distance public transport network is not as good as the west coast mainline to London. But I am not sure what we are achieving by discussing lengths of time in different types of metal objects traveling at different speeds and directions. You either decide you will follow your team and make the journey to Cornwall, or you don't because it is too far. The traveling away fans is not what will make or break this for Cornwall RL. It is the clubs ability to build a following of home fans, sponsorship and raise revenues from the interactions its having with its own audiences.

There's no getting away from the fact that Cornwall is a long way away from traditional heartlands of RL. But it's hardly all tiny A-roads south of Bristol and shows an immense amount of ignorance in a lot of the comments I have read.
The first time you have to stop once you have hit either the M6 in Lancashire or M1 in Yorkshire is where?
Truro. It is entirely motorway & dual carriageway until that point. Yes, there is traffic during peak-summer holidays. But plan your journey and accept its a long journey. How many away fans are likely to go for a day trip? I'd suggest very few people will be doing that.

So where are people most likely to stay in Cornwall? Not likely to be Penryn. If fans are traveling for a long weekend or may even tie-in with a week holiday, then its not about destination Penryn and its less than idyllic industrial estate next to the rugby club. It's about the wider resorts and coastal towns in Cornwall.

When it comes to the market for home support there has also been a lot of ignorant comments around populations of small towns in Cornwall.
It is VERY culturally normal to live near Perranporth, do your weekly shopping in Truro and then meet friends for lunch or a pint in Falmouth as an example. That would be a round-trip of 39miles in one afternoon. Cornwall is very dispersed compared to the north of England. As such, people's behaviours are different and it is accepted you will travel further to access those facilities/events/entertainment. We (in this forum) cannot apply the same cultural norms as Rochdale to Cornwall, given the physical make-up of the county is very different. Likewise, for all of the public transport conversations, in central Cornwall (between all of the major towns) the network is actually pretty good to Penryn.

The question of whether it is successful in the long run is whether Cornwall RL can attract enough people by building its brand in local communities. It's not a question of how big or small a town is and whether communities are willing to travel 10miles to a game. They travel these types of distances all the time, day-in day-out to facilitate their lives.

[ShropshireBull]

2 hours ago, iffleyox said:

Fair - I thought that was long gone 

Yep owned by booths who put a convenant on the ground thinking they could force the football club to pay them cash to rent forever and they could leech off the club, so club built a perfect new ground over the road and booth´s now left with a financially worthless assett thanks to their own move. 

So a perfectly reasonable ground (would need a load of work and to finish or rebuild stand) that is right in the middle of the town ten mins from the train station sits unused and unloved, when it would be perfect for a dual code club that gets 2000 average and could be a community hub all year round. Never mind... 

[Johnoco]

The first line of the OP states "Give Cornwall a chance".......... maybe not

[Dan Taye-Sinferno]

Interesting upbeat article in the Oldham Roughyeds news section regarding Cornwall (entitled Cornish venture could be a wow says Alex). Ignoring details of change of ownership,location etc. I have to agree with Mr C's comments re WWR and player recruitment. IMHO the Raiders made a mistake in thinking that Welsh pride and spirit could overcome the fact that the player in front of you is 2 stones heavier,2 inches taller,half a yard faster and has been playing league for years. If Cornwall go down the same "locals" route they will probably" enjoy"  a similar first season  that the Raiders had.

[Tabby]

8 hours ago, Johnoco said:

The first line of the OP states "Give Cornwall a chance".......... maybe not

Have they got a squad? I’m not being negative but can’t really comment if they have a chance or not without players.

[Johnoco]

3 minutes ago, Tabby said:

Have they got a squad? I’m not being negative but can’t really comment if they have a chance or not without players.

Let's see how it all pans out eh? 

[Tabby]

Just now, Johnoco said:

Let's see how it all pans out eh? 

You can see, and let me know. 
 

Eh.

[Johnoco]

1 hour ago, Tabby said:

You can see, and let me know. 
 

Eh.

Er ok.