Yorkshire decline ?

[David Shepherd]

On 19/08/2023 at 23:25, owls said:

Not sure if this has been covered before but looking at the league table the top Yorkshire team is 7th, has this ever happened before, what has gone wrong the Eastern side of the Pennines,

Yorkshire is in decline and has been for years.

Fev haven’t been in the top flight for nearly 30 years.

Coincidence? 

Edited August 21, 2023 by David Shepherd

[Bearman]

Normally I would be the first to crow but,.....

Yorkshire's struggle is rugby leagues struggle

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Bearman said:

Normally I would be the first to crow but,.....

Yorkshire's struggle is rugby leagues struggle

This is it.

There’s something of a “two bald men fighting over a comb” vibe going on.

[meast]

11 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leigh are well run rugby clubs, with good facilities, strong foundations (at least with the first 3), and relatively forward thinking and pragmatic leadership. This has bred success on the field. How many of the Yorkshire clubs can say the same? 

Salford are the outlier West of the Pennines but have got it right on the field. 

How do you define a "well run club"?

 

[M j M]

22 minutes ago, meast said:

How do you define a "well run club"?

 

Good question.

It's very hard indeed to include Leigh in that category given the history of chaos under the current owner.

Saints, Warrington and especially Wigan meanwhile have relied on millions of pounds of owner money to prop them up.

In contrast Cas and Wakey are run as very tight ships, they spend the money they have, don't accumulate particularly huge debts to their owners or to third parties and try to balance their budgets. 

So which are the well run clubs?

[meast]

Indeed, knowing a bit about how Huddersfield are run, I would say they are well run, despite relying mainly, but not solely on Ken Davy's millions (another myth around Huddersfield).

We haven't had to cheat the salary cap or pay players wives as hospitality workers etc, we haven't terminated contracts of multiple players, we haven't gone bust or had to get the begging buckets out.

Thankfully, there's also funds/trusts and things put in place for when Ken does leave us, so another myth potentially busted.

Are Warrington really that well run? are Leigh? Wigan? probably, Saints appear to be but who knows as there's varying definitions of well run rugby clubs.

[Trojan]

14 hours ago, meast said:

Indeed, knowing a bit about how Huddersfield are run, I would say they are well run, despite relying mainly, but not solely on Ken Davy's millions (another myth around Huddersfield).

We haven't had to cheat the salary cap or pay players wives as hospitality workers etc, we haven't terminated contracts of multiple players, we haven't gone bust or had to get the begging buckets out.

Thankfully, there's also funds/trusts and things put in place for when Ken does leave us, so another myth potentially busted.

Are Warrington really that well rwun? are Leigh? Wigan? probably, Saints appear to be but who knows as there's varying definitions of well run rugby clubs.

TBH Leigh remind me of the great Wakey side of the 60's.  Championship wins, Challenge and County cups..  In 1968 they were champions and runners up at Wembley.  In 1969 they were having to sell players and had the begging  bowl out, "save Trinity."  Why?  Because the whole show was financed by a man called Geoffrey Fell, and when he was killed in a motor accident, his family wanted the money out.  If I were Del Boy I'd get rid of the Lamborghini.

[Saint Toppy]

On 20/08/2023 at 11:39, OMEGA said:

I think the original post was a genuine one and obviously I don’t mind the banter between East and West of the Pennines but the subject is in fact a very serious one.

There’s been a visible and measurable decline in participation right across the board, specifically in the strongholds of Yorkshire. Places like Castleford, Wakefield and Hull have seen a huge decline in Amateur Clubs and an alarming reduction in the number of teams run in the surviving Amateur clubs. Where Clubs would run teams at all age groups now it’s hit and miss with many of the age groups missing a team, for example, a club might run teams from U7s to U11s but no U12s or U14s and can only run an U15s because they’ve merged 2 teams from two different amateur clubs.

At the same time there’s been a similar reduction in Schools participation with some traditionally strong schools not playing any Rugby League at all.

We often talk about the TV contract and funding as the big issue in the game but no one seems to want to talk about the decline and the REAL participation numbers. It’s no good pretending that they’re OK by including the same Kid 3 times by using his/her participation at school, Amateur Club and Scholarship and pretending it’s 3 layers.

 

You only need to look at the Academy to see where the respective counties are at. The Lancashire lads gave the Yorkies another thrashing in the Origin last weekend meaning its now over 3 years since Yorkshire even won a game against their Red Rose counterparts. Lancs ever had the luxury of leaving out several of their star players in order to give a few new lads a game at that level yet still won easily. If you look at the current Academy league table, with just a couple of games to go the top 3 are Saints, Wigan & Wire.

[Saint Toppy]

17 hours ago, M j M said:

Good question.

It's very hard indeed to include Leigh in that category given the history of chaos under the current owner.

Saints, Warrington and especially Wigan meanwhile have relied on millions of pounds of owner money to prop them up.

In contrast Cas and Wakey are run as very tight ships, they spend the money they have, don't accumulate particularly huge debts to their owners or to third parties and try to balance their budgets. 

So which are the well run clubs?

Nothing wrong with having debts, particularly at sports clubs, it all comes down to whether you can service them year after year and are working towards improving your financial position.

I know that since the Covid hit years Saints have increased their turnover by £2.4M and reduced their annual losses by over half (all be it they are still making a £300K loss instead of a £600K+ loss each year). But and this is the important thing, their losses are all being covered by the board of directors and not just 1 man as there are several multi millionaires on the board. They don't have to borrow money to service debts or to run the club. The club has also already made their single big investment in a new stadium, again all paid for by the directors with no external loans and they continue to invest in the facilities (several hundred new solar pannels will be going up on the south stand to make the stadium self sufficient in its electricity needs), plus they will be building a brand new training facility in the next few years as well.

Obviously there's an issue if several board members all decide to leave simultaneously (as there probably would be at almost any sports club), but the likelihood of that happening is fairly small.

So as a Saints fan i'd say the club is pretty well run

[hunsletgreenandgold]

I hope people aren't trying to draw a correlation between a poor season for most SL sides east of the Pennines and the decline community game. That's a completely different conversation, so far removed from SL, that it really can't be linked - at all. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by hunsletgreenandgold

[Ragingbull]

19 hours ago, meast said:

Indeed, knowing a bit about how Huddersfield are run, I would say they are well run, despite relying mainly, but not solely on Ken Davy's millions (another myth around Huddersfield).

We haven't had to cheat the salary cap or pay players wives as hospitality workers etc, we haven't terminated contracts of multiple players, we haven't gone bust or had to get the begging buckets out.

Thankfully, there's also funds/trusts and things put in place for when Ken does leave us, so another myth potentially busted.

Are Warrington really that well run? are Leigh? Wigan? probably, Saints appear to be but who knows as there's varying definitions of well run rugby clubs.

So despite being one of the best run clubs in the league they still dont win major trophies and still  cant get decent crowds to go watch them? 

[OMEGA]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I hope people aren't trying to draw a correlation between a poor season for most SL sides east of the Pennines and the decline community game. That's a completely different conversation, so far removed from SL, that it really can't be linked - at all. 

There is a correlation but it’s the other way around

The decline in the community game of]verb20 years or so has inevitably lead to a decline in the professional game. If you reduce the number of people taking up the game then you narrow the base of the talent pyramid which eventually leads to a reduction of quality at the very top. We’re now seeing that reduction in quality play out across the Superleague where there are many players who just aren’t good enough and wouldn’t have been top players 15 years ago

[JM2010]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

You only need to look at the Academy to see where the respective counties are at. The Lancashire lads gave the Yorkies another thrashing in the Origin last weekend meaning its now over 3 years since Yorkshire even won a game against their Red Rose counterparts. Lancs ever had the luxury of leaving out several of their star players in order to give a few new lads a game at that level yet still won easily. If you look at the current Academy league table, with just a couple of games to go the top 3 are Saints, Wigan & Wire.

Is that because they are producing better players West of the Pennines or because they are the best academies and cast their nets wider?

Are there many Yorkshire lads in those academies?

[meast]

5 hours ago, Ragingbull said:

So despite being one of the best run clubs in the league they still dont win major trophies and still  cant get decent crowds to go watch them? 

How many clubs win major trophies every year?

How do you define decent crowds?

[Anita Bath]

Move the border to squeeze them into red rose country…they will be winning cups and getting large crowds in no time.

[corvusxiii]

I moved out of Sunny Cas a few years ago, still see a few games and watch others at local sky pubs. Have to say, too much of this thread leaves me cold. For the first time in a long while I do wonder. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

16 hours ago, OMEGA said:

There is a correlation but it’s the other way around

The decline in the community game of]verb20 years or so has inevitably lead to a decline in the professional game. If you reduce the number of people taking up the game then you narrow the base of the talent pyramid which eventually leads to a reduction of quality at the very top. We’re now seeing that reduction in quality play out across the Superleague where there are many players who just aren’t good enough and wouldn’t have been top players 15 years ago

Well yes, but that's not what I was eluding to. I agree and know only too well 'less players = less quality' overall. The point I was picking out was some trying to suggest this seems to be unique or more at play in Yorkshire and that's why clubs are struggling......that's not the case. 

[M j M]

23 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Nothing wrong with having debts, particularly at sports clubs, it all comes down to whether you can service them year after year and are working towards improving your financial position.

I know that since the Covid hit years Saints have increased their turnover by £2.4M and reduced their annual losses by over half (all be it they are still making a £300K loss instead of a £600K+ loss each year). But and this is the important thing, their losses are all being covered by the board of directors and not just 1 man as there are several multi millionaires on the board. They don't have to borrow money to service debts or to run the club. The club has also already made their single big investment in a new stadium, again all paid for by the directors with no external loans and they continue to invest in the facilities (several hundred new solar pannels will be going up on the south stand to make the stadium self sufficient in its electricity needs), plus they will be building a brand new training facility in the next few years as well.

Obviously there's an issue if several board members all decide to leave simultaneously (as there probably would be at almost any sports club), but the likelihood of that happening is fairly small.

So as a Saints fan i'd say the club is pretty well run

I think most SL clubs are pretty well run TBH.

What really annoys me (and sorry but St Helens fans seem to be amongst the worst for this) is fans of clubs who lucked into having rich backers, with all the opportunities that has given them, raining hate on clubs, many not much smaller, who don't. Cas and Wakey are prime examples: they are in my view very well run given the limitations that they have. They can't afford to lose much money so run tight financial ships and haven't until very recently had the political support to get stadium development plans off the ground despite them both sinking hundreds of thousands of pounds into their projects.

[crashmon]

So no Yorkshire club in the GF

Only 1 Yorkshire cliub made the playoffs..

After tonights game at Fev, either Tolouse or London will be promoted, so thats 1 less Yorkshire club in SL

Is there something heppening on the east side of the M62 causing this? 

[doc]

It's the rapture!

[Barley Mow]

With Wakefield going down and no Yorkshire club going up, two Yorkshire clubs promoted to the Championship replacing Keighley going down - I make that 9 Yorkshire clubs out of 14 in the championship next year.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

With Wakefield going down and no Yorkshire club going up, two Yorkshire clubs promoted to the Championship replacing Keighley going down - I make that 9 Yorkshire clubs out of 14 in the championship next year.

 Bring back Yorkshire Airlines

[RayCee]

6 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

With Wakefield going down and no Yorkshire club going up, two Yorkshire clubs promoted to the Championship replacing Keighley going down - I make that 9 Yorkshire clubs out of 14 in the championship next year.

At least it will save on travel for the Yorkshire based clubs. Hopefully, better away support too. 

[Anita Bath]

Should be able to get sponsorship from the British Whippet Racing Association with that number of teams from the dark side of the Peninnes.

[M j M]

Do we need to point out that just yesterday there was an all-Yorkshire Grand Final for the second year in a row?