The true sleeping giants of the game

[sam4731]

In sport, if you stand still, you're moving backwards. As much as I respect these traditional clubs, their history, their legacy in the importance of the creation and development of the game but the fact remains is that we're not living in 1895 and the sporting landscape is far different now.

If we're truly honest with ourselves modern day sport is almost 100% reliant on broadcasting which can broadly be split into 2 categories when it comes to appeal.

1. How many subscriptions can you get based on the location of a team.

2. What is the appeal of the teams playing to casual viewers.

None of the teams in the OP fit into either if these criteria, as do most other teams in our game (my own included).

Like I originally said, if you stand still you are moving backwards and to move forward in a crowded market you need to focus on areas which check both of those boxes, and when I say focus on, I mean properly sustainable, well funded attention (unlike most of the unsuccessful expansion projects we have undertaken).

[bigbaldnmad]

On 24/11/2023 at 11:13, Kirmonds pouch said:

Sleeping giants, or at least quite big lads

Trinity: With BV on the mend and a very good pool of local talent, easily average gates of 8,000+ in SL, and no serious soccer threat.

Really!!!

Having had 25 years at the top table, with the same Sky money as Saint, Wigan, Wire and Leeds.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

[WakefieldCityLoyal]

10 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Really!!!

Having had 25 years at the top table, with the same Sky money as Saint, Wigan, Wire and Leeds.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Saints, Wigan, Wire and Leeds had more money than just the sky money, we didn’t.

Up the Trin 

[bigbaldnmad]

3 minutes ago, WakefieldCityLoyal said:

Saints, Wigan, Wire and Leeds had more money than just the sky money, we didn’t.

But still not a sleeping giant, let's not pretend.

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, sam4731 said:

In sport, if you stand still, you're moving backwards. As much as I respect these traditional clubs, their history, their legacy in the importance of the creation and development of the game but the fact remains is that we're not living in 1895 and the sporting landscape is far different now.

If we're truly honest with ourselves modern day sport is almost 100% reliant on broadcasting which can broadly be split into 2 categories when it comes to appeal.

1. How many subscriptions can you get based on the location of a team.

2. What is the appeal of the teams playing to casual viewers.

None of the teams in the OP fit into either if these criteria, as do most other teams in our game (my own included).

Like I originally said, if you stand still you are moving backwards and to move forward in a crowded market you need to focus on areas which check both of those boxes, and when I say focus on, I mean properly sustainable, well funded attention (unlike most of the unsuccessful expansion projects we have undertaken).

In my opinion, nothing can replace good governance and good community engagement, no matter the club.  

Unfortunately I don’t have confidence is the RFLs or SLs governance capabilities to help attract more big destinations and big investors, nor do I have faith in said club’s community engagement capabilities in which they can reach their ceiling quickly. 

[The Masked Poster]

2 hours ago, WakefieldCityLoyal said:

Saints, Wigan, Wire and Leeds had more money than just the sky money, we didn’t.

Up the Trin 

You forgot to mention Bradford. 

[The Masked Poster]

7 hours ago, Dovster said:

To put the record straight.

I don't like to keep talking about this subject as it does make Keighley fans sound bitter. It was a long time ago and many other clubs have suffered injustices by the RFL at the time and since.

You really need to have lived through it as a Keighley fan to truly understand how disgracefull this decision at the time was. Cougarmania was really that big and it was taken away. Has as been said we will never know what might have been.

Once Kighley realised that they were not wanted in the top league (too close to Bradford) then the finance disappeared and the many of the fans left the sport to football (Bradford City and Burnley were on the up at the time)

This is not relevant to this thread as I would never consider Keighley a sleeping giant but maybe another missed oportunity.

Hope this helps 

That’s mostly fair comment and mostly true.

But you must be local (?) and therefore must understand the hatred (definitely not too strong a word) that many in Keighley have for Bradford.
 

And yet strangely enough plenty of people in Keighley support Bradford City, yet despise the Bulls? I know this, because I know it. 

[zylya]

On 24/11/2023 at 13:06, fighting irish said:

As an avowed expansionist I agree with everything you say.

There is nothing wrong with continually strengthening what we have and so I stand aside cheering you on.

Having said that, I don't think using expansionist clubs as an excuse is an accurate explanation of why the game is weak. The current state of the game, isn't due to money wasted on expansionist development. It's due to a crippling incompetence an arrogant self satisfied unwillingness to improve and a dog eat dog determination not to share best practice amongst their bitter rivals. Listen to all the wailing about what IMG are encouraging the clubs to do. 

Hopefully IMG will improve the clubs business acumen and thereby bolster their sustainability. Time will tell.

Hardly any RFL effort/expertise/or money has been ''spent'' on expansion pro' clubs and even less on the amateur game (none).

The ''new'' pro clubs pop into existence, funded by hapless amateurs, with a few bob in their pockets, naively eager to cash in on the ''big time''. If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be laughable.

The development of the game outside the heartlands has been achieved entirely through the efforts of amateur enthusiasts who in the main, are motivated by the pure joy of being involved in a great game. Speaking plainly, there is no development plan. I'm happy with that. What we have is a tribute to all the real lovers of the game, (the Bob Browns) who have given their heart, soul and tireless efforts over many years, to build clubs in the communities they live in.

If you contrast what we have here with what they have in Australia the difference is glaring. They (the Aussies) have an enormous pyramid, under NRL. The clubs at various levels are very substantial businesses in their own rights with thousands of members and playing in thriving competitions for which the only reward is pride in their local clubs and the communities they represent.

We haven't got any of that.

Any attempt to graduate from this rich amateur base to the NRL is subject to huge scrutiny, very detailed due-dilligence and must be congruent with a wise, forward-looking strategy, despite being very substantial entities in their own right.  Look at the process the Dolphins were involved in before being accepted.

We'll let any chancer in, if it seems as if he's got a few quid, whether the area he intends to operate in has any history in the game or not.

Regarding real expansion here (I use Wales as an example), if we (Rugby League ''fans'') are not disparaging to our amateur pioneers we just ignore them completely. There's a kind of condescending, ''Daddy knows best'' attitude, a smirking arrogance based on their meagre achievements (to date) instead of warm heartfelt congratulations. The attitude of many posters here is one of mild embarrassment about our amateur players, clubs and structures, because their not on the telly.

I'm immensely proud of our local club, that's enough for me. I say keep building the amateur game and let the ''circus'' take care of itself. 

This is an excellent post and mirrors a lot of my own experience as someone who was born in a non-RL area and only took up the game for the first time at uni and am now involved in running Rugby League activity (club and some schools stuff). There was no "effort" to expand into my home town, I set it up by getting in touch with people and making it happen. The idea that the RFL is ploughing tons of cash into expansion areas is demonstrably false - even at the pro level, look at the fates of West Wales & Skolars over the last couple of years.

There's a skeleton staff at the RFL dealing with "The South" (i.e. everything that's not the heartlands, even though that covers way more than just South of England) and they've always been really helpful, but it's a drop in the ocean. To suggest that there's money wasted on expansion projects is crazy when there's only one full time staff member for the largest part of the country. Despite that, small pockets of progress are happening - I took a local school to the London & SE Champion Schools festival the other day (U14) and there were 7 schools there all playing 13-a-side rugby league. The more that can be made of these things, the more likely it continues.

The problem for the traditionalists is that there's practically zero money to divert from the expansion areas to the heartlands - since as FI has pointed out here, most of it is coming from enthusiastic amateurs. Because as someone who's never lived up North and only took up the sport at university, I'm not going to be sending any money to places over 5 hours away from me. I'll either invest my time and energy into building something in my local community or I'll simply spend that same time and energy in other pursuits. This heartlands vs expansion debate is trite and irrelevant since there's no real funding or time/energy invested into non-heartland areas at a NGB level.

[Dovster]

8 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

That’s mostly fair comment and mostly true.

But you must be local (?) and therefore must understand the hatred (definitely not too strong a word) that many in Keighley have for Bradford.
 

And yet strangely enough plenty of people in Keighley support Bradford City, yet despise the Bulls? I know this, because I know it. 

Mostly!

Your right there is a lot of dislike for the Bulls in Keighley and most of this does stem back to the early days of SL.

The Bulls were seen as the main reason the Cougars never had an opportunity to play at the top level.

This dislike does go both ways though. Try wearing a Cougar shirt at Odsal. 

Anyway back on track. The Bulls could be described as a sleeping giant but it is a long long way back from where they currently sit off the field.

[OMEGA]

21 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

For me it's hard to become sleeping giant or future giant when our game doesn't allow for mid to long term planning. Half concocted ideas with the don't worry the fans will come has been part of our game for years. I mean Magic Weekend at Elland Road? Let's pay IMG money but ignore them? 

As I've said our game really doesn't allow for sleeping giants. 

Is promotion and relegation with minimum standards, a set and 4 year International calendar and a set league structure that never changes that hard to achieve. Clubs and countries for that matter need targets and structure.

I agree wholeheartedly with the bulk of what you’re saying and while the RFL are as culpable as anyone the main reason we don’t have real stability is the clubs refusal to become stable self funding businesses.

Instead of laying real foundations for the future almost all of our clubs play at it or ignore every part of the business other than the on-field product. That was sustainable 50 years ago when there wasn’t much else going on in peoples lives but now there’s an endless list of rival attractions for people’s time and money. Clubs need to stop only trying to appease their fan base with semi acceptable offerings and promises of being better next season and owners/directors must cease placating for the sole reason of hanging on to their position.

What IMG are trying to do is force that upon the clubs/game so that every club pays attention to the whole spectrum of areas that must constantly and consistently be invested in if the game is ever going to break the downward spiral that it’s currently in and maybe one day begin to grow and reach its potential.

Maybe it’s a pipe dream or maybe it’s such a long term goal that we can’t ever see it happening but surely we must have a SL full of ‘A’ Class clubs and all the huge benefits that would bring.They must be challenged by a Championship with high scoring ‘B’ Class clubs who are striving to be ‘A’s and so on.

Should we ever wish to expand outside the heartlands of the game then any clubs being considered would surely have to meet IMGs criteria and in doing so would have to establish themselves over a number of years, building presence, amateur teams, fan base, commercial support and financial stability while progressing through the divisions. Gone would be the days of a rich man making hollow promises and the SL/RFL accepting them on face value.

We’ve brought this upon ourselves via decades of mismanagement, lack of direction and egotistical leaders employing fanciful ideas in search of short cuts to success. We’ve blown well over half a billion or more of SKY money with near on zero to show for it but decline. It’s time to grow up

Edited November 26, 2023 by OMEGA

[Mumby Magic]

2 hours ago, OMEGA said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the bulk of what you’re saying and while the RFL are as culpable as anyone the main reason we don’t have real stability is the clubs refusal to become stable self funding businesses.

Instead of laying real foundations for the future almost all of our clubs play at it or ignore every part of the business other than the on-field product. That was sustainable 50 years ago when there wasn’t much else going on in peoples lives but now there’s an endless list of rival attractions for people’s time and money. Clubs need to stop only trying to appease their fan base with semi acceptable offerings and promises of being better next season and owners/directors must cease placating for the sole reason of hanging on to their position.

What IMG are trying to do is force that upon the clubs/game so that every club pays attention to the whole spectrum of areas that must constantly and consistently be invested in if the game is ever going to break the downward spiral that it’s currently in and maybe one day begin to grow and reach its potential.

Maybe it’s a pipe dream or maybe it’s such a long term goal that we can’t ever see it happening but surely we must have a SL full of ‘A’ Class clubs and all the huge benefits that would bring.They must be challenged by a Championship with high scoring ‘B’ Class clubs who are striving to be ‘A’s and so on.

Should we ever wish to expand outside the heartlands of the game then any clubs being considered would surely have to meet IMGs criteria and in doing so would have to establish themselves over a number of years, building presence, amateur teams, fan base, commercial support and financial stability while progressing through the divisions. Gone would be the days of a rich man making hollow promises and the SL/RFL accepting them on face value.

We’ve brought this upon ourselves via decades of mismanagement, lack of direction and egotistical leaders employing fanciful ideas in search of short cuts to success. We’ve blown well over half a billion or more of SKY money with near on zero to show for it but decline. It’s time to grow up

I agree with that. Was talking to a Fax fan and I'm surprised how many clubs dont run an academy of any note. People say costs but players will come through the system and can potentially be an asset to sell on. Bulls have taken 160k approx in fees within the year for former Academy players. Yes I know fortunately we have one if the best Academy's within the game but it had to start from a standing start when we went bust.

[The Masked Poster]

2 hours ago, Dovster said:

Mostly!

Your right there is a lot of dislike for the Bulls in Keighley and most of this does stem back to the early days of SL.

The Bulls were seen as the main reason the Cougars never had an opportunity to play at the top level.

This dislike does go both ways though. Try wearing a Cougar shirt at Odsal. 

Anyway back on track. The Bulls could be described as a sleeping giant but it is a long long way back from where they currently sit off the field.

Again I agree with most of that but I think the hatred of Bradford is nothing to do with the Bulls or even RL. I can remember hostility (to be polite) towards all things Bradford going back over 40 years. 

But anyway, yes but I honestly doubt Bradford will come back this time. Too many factors have changed in the past few years since they were a big club. 

[bigbaldnmad]

3 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Was talking to a Fax fan and I'm surprised how many clubs dont run an academy of any note.

You are aware that the RFL decide who are allowed to run an academy, not the clubs.

[Mumby Magic]

14 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

You are aware that the RFL decide who are allowed to run an academy, not the clubs.

Forgot about it tbh. What a joke.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

You are aware that the RFL decide who are allowed to run an academy, not the clubs.

 

7 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Forgot about it tbh. What a joke.

That is not strictly true.

The RFL decide who is allowed to run Category A/1 academies. That is, the purely rugby based academies that take players from the junior clubs to scholarship programmes and eventually pro level contracts. When they do this, they limit the numbers; to protect both the quality of the elite academy league, and to prevent the collapse of the amateur leagues by having all their players signed away to "pro" academies. The RFL know that most academy kids don't make it anyway, and there isn't enough money in the game for most prospects to have a future in it, so to limit the spaces available is a sensible compromise.

The RFL as I understand it are much more amenable and open to any club running a Category 3/C academy. That is, an academy connected usually to a local college which plays against other similar academies but also has academic/technical qualifications built into the offering. Plenty of clubs without Cat 1 academies, and even some with them, run these teams too. 

[Lowdesert]

6 hours ago, OMEGA said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the bulk of what you’re saying and while the RFL are as culpable as anyone the main reason we don’t have real stability is the clubs refusal to become stable self funding businesses.

Instead of laying real foundations for the future almost all of our clubs play at it or ignore every part of the business other than the on-field product. That was sustainable 50 years ago when there wasn’t much else going on in peoples lives but now there’s an endless list of rival attractions for people’s time and money. Clubs need to stop only trying to appease their fan base with semi acceptable offerings and promises of being better next season and owners/directors must cease placating for the sole reason of hanging on to their position.

What IMG are trying to do is force that upon the clubs/game so that every club pays attention to the whole spectrum of areas that must constantly and consistently be invested in if the game is ever going to break the downward spiral that it’s currently in and maybe one day begin to grow and reach its potential.

Maybe it’s a pipe dream or maybe it’s such a long term goal that we can’t ever see it happening but surely we must have a SL full of ‘A’ Class clubs and all the huge benefits that would bring.They must be challenged by a Championship with high scoring ‘B’ Class clubs who are striving to be ‘A’s and so on.

Should we ever wish to expand outside the heartlands of the game then any clubs being considered would surely have to meet IMGs criteria and in doing so would have to establish themselves over a number of years, building presence, amateur teams, fan base, commercial support and financial stability while progressing through the divisions. Gone would be the days of a rich man making hollow promises and the SL/RFL accepting them on face value.

We’ve brought this upon ourselves via decades of mismanagement, lack of direction and egotistical leaders employing fanciful ideas in search of short cuts to success. We’ve blown well over half a billion or more of SKY money with near on zero to show for it but decline. It’s time to grow up

Img are doing exactly what the clubs will let them do.  It’s on those clubs.

[dboy]

18 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Really!!!

Having had 25 years at the top table, with the same Sky money as Saint, Wigan, Wire and Leeds.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

So quite the definition of a sleeping giant then.

Trinity are awakening.

You sound bitter??

[dboy]

1 hour ago, bigbaldnmad said:

You are aware that the RFL decide who are allowed to run an academy, not the clubs.

You are aware that the RFL decision on which clubs run academies is based entirely on the business and sustainability plans that the CLUBS submit in their applications to run an academy??

###### clubs can't run academies.

[JM2010]

24 minutes ago, dboy said:

So quite the definition of a sleeping giant then.

Trinity are awakening.

You sound bitter??

I’ve always thought Wakefield have a lot of potential. Decent sized city, strong local amateur game, lots of interest in RL. 
Lack of money and facilities has what’s been holding them back. If they can get to A grade and get some success on the pitch and invest in junior pathways then they could be one of the bigger clubs

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I’ve always thought Wakefield have a lot of potential. Decent sized city, strong local amateur game, lots of interest in RL. 
Lack of money and facilities has what’s been holding them back. If they can get to A grade and get some success on the pitch and invest in junior pathways then they could be one of the bigger clubs

There's certainly no reason in my view why it can't be as competitive as even the likes of Wigan and St Helens commercially, given its relative size as a city.

[dboy]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's certainly no reason in my view why it can't be as competitive as even the likes of Wigan and St Helens commercially, given its relative size as a city.

In time, yes, I bloody hope so, but happy with being a proper play-off team in the next 3 years.

After that...

Also, we have to measuring clubs on trophies - it's ridiculously finite.

Competitive, stable, profitable, productive...

 

[headtackle]

Salford with all of Manchester on the doorstep should be a sleeping giant

Would take a big step to rebrand but in a big city the catchment is there. I know they have stadium issues with the council/Sale RUFC at the moment and read that the Etihad campus was an option.

If they go there and become Salford/Manchester Reds who knows

Not sure the City owners would be happy with Reds on the doorstep so might need to become Sky Blues 

 

 

[JM2010]

For me Wakefield, Bradford and Toulouse are the clubs with the most potential currently outside of SL to become one of the bigger SL sides. 
 

[moorside roughyed]

19 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

That’s mostly fair comment and mostly true.

But you must be local (?) and therefore must understand the hatred (definitely not too strong a word) that many in Keighley have for Bradford.
 

And yet strangely enough plenty of people in Keighley support Bradford City, yet despise the Bulls? I know this, because I know it. 

Supporting Bradford in soccer. Hating Bradford in rugby league. That does sound odd from an outsider.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, moorside roughyed said:

Supporting Bradford in soccer. Hating Bradford in rugby league. That does sound odd from an outsider.

Try most Cas and Wakey fans booing Marching on Together at Headingley on a Friday then proudly and without irony saying "All Leeds Aren't We" for LUFC the following day