IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[phiggins]

6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Other than the Slides, was there ever more detail in how this would run, be checked, by whom?

There was a press briefing last week relating to IMG scoring, some details here: https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-grading-expansion-29103175

I find the fact that the RFL are still in a tender process for an auditor to be quite worrying. Hopefully they are close to picking that auditor because the contracting process is unlikely to be a quick one. Also not sure why details cannot be submitted and verified before September. A number of clubs will have filed the last accounts to be considered in this round already. 

There ought to be a live table, where clubs and fans can at least have an idea of where they stand once the last regular league game finishes, subject to impact the play offs has on final positions and bonus points, but that won't be happening.

[Lowdesert]

44 minutes ago, phiggins said:

There was a press briefing last week relating to IMG scoring, some details here: https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-grading-expansion-29103175

I find the fact that the RFL are still in a tender process for an auditor to be quite worrying. Hopefully they are close to picking that auditor because the contracting process is unlikely to be a quick one. Also not sure why details cannot be submitted and verified before September. A number of clubs will have filed the last accounts to be considered in this round already. 

There ought to be a live table, where clubs and fans can at least have an idea of where they stand once the last regular league game finishes, subject to impact the play offs has on final positions and bonus points, but that won't be happening.

This is what I was alluding to.  There should be a definitive guide to what Clubs need to do to achieve a requirements in each Clause.  I would’ve expected some form of detail to have already been drawn up.  If it hasn’t, that would show that this ‘Plan’ hasn’t received the attention it should have.  I doubt that is the case and would be amazed if it’s the opposite.  Ideally, clubs need to be doing their own, internal audits.  Another cost not probably accounted for!

Nonetheless, there still needs to be agreed audit requirements otherwise clubs will be arguing the toss over everything.  
 

Edit:  tbf, they have got a decent structure from what I’ve seen.  Other than the fine details in the audit requirements I would add HR, Training and Non conformance.  

Edited May 7 by Lowdesert

[gingerjon]

30 minutes ago, phiggins said:

There was a press briefing last week relating to IMG scoring, some details here: https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/img-super-league-grading-expansion-29103175

I find the fact that the RFL are still in a tender process for an auditor to be quite worrying. Hopefully they are close to picking that auditor because the contracting process is unlikely to be a quick one. Also not sure why details cannot be submitted and verified before September. A number of clubs will have filed the last accounts to be considered in this round already. 

There ought to be a live table, where clubs and fans can at least have an idea of where they stand once the last regular league game finishes, subject to impact the play offs has on final positions and bonus points, but that won't be happening.

No need for a live table but share your concerns about the rest.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

So expansion absolutely can and does happen in a closed shop system, and I'd argue it's much more likely to succeed when it does.

Yes it does Toby, but a what finacial cost? Those new start ups in Aus could probably be as expensive as buying any 3, or so SL clubs.

[Taffy Tiger]

3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Then you're right - Grade A is meaningless 

Hi T C

 

To be fair Grade A isn't meaningless . It means you are guaranteed a SL place for the following season . As has been mentioned in previous posts , it won't be an issue for 2025 participation , as there won't be 12 SL teams achieving a Grade A status . However , it is in the future that the Cat A guarantee will/may come into place . If more than 12 teams achieve a Cat A status at the end of any given season then all will be guaranteed a place in SL . This would mean an expansion to accommodate all Cat A clubs . Whether the criteria or the number of points required to meet a Cat A status remains the same in the future, we will have to wait and see , but as things stand Cat A guarantees you a SL place.

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi T C

 

To be fair Grade A isn't meaningless . It means you are guaranteed a SL place for the following season . As has been mentioned in previous posts , it won't be an issue for 2025 participation , as there won't be 12 SL teams achieving a Grade A status . However , it is in the future that the Cat A guarantee will/may come into place . If more than 12 teams achieve a Cat A status at the end of any given season then all will be guaranteed a place in SL . This would mean an expansion to accommodate all Cat A clubs . Whether the criteria or the number of points required to meet a Cat A status remains the same in the future, we will have to wait and see , but as things stand Cat A guarantees you a SL place.

Capping at 12 clubs and guaranteeing A grades a place in SL is contradictory. 

[Taffy Tiger]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Capping at 12 clubs and guaranteeing A grades a place in SL is contradictory. 

Hi Dave T , only if you know there are more than 12 Cat A clubs

Even though IMG have announced that the official grading scores for 2025 won't be announced until October 23 , they will have enough information already to ascertain the number of clubs that have the potential to reach Cat A status at the end of this season . I don't think it's a coincidence that they have recently announced that SL won't be above 12 teams for 2025 . They will know that there is no way more than 12 clubs can achieve the 15 points required for Cat A status.

DB at Leigh has said that he expects them to be the next Cat A club . He has said that RFL have agreed their score would go up by 2.5 points on the back of their latest financial accounts .

 

Cas and Wakey have both said that they don't think they will achieve the 15 points required for Cat A status , but have both stated that they strongly believe that a mid to high 14 points score will be enough to make the top 12. This suggests that maybe Leigh will be the only new team to achieve Cat A this season . 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Nonetheless, there still needs to be agreed audit requirements otherwise clubs will be arguing the toss over everything.  

To do that along with a 'live ladder' all the data and scores will need to be transparent to see each club and more importantly the other clubs have achieved their scores.

Transparent as in having the ability to challenge others alloted scores, it has been mentioned many times, but if we are talking a fraction of a point between getting SL status and the alloted funding then there should be a some way it can be contested, especially with the reasoning that there are so many flaws in this system.

Edited May 7 by Harry Stottle

[Lowdesert]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

To do that along with a 'live ladder' all the data and scores will need to be transparent to see each club and more importantly the other clubs have achieved their scores.

Transparent as in having the ability to challenge others alloted scores, it has been mentioned many times, but if we are talking a fraction of a point between getting SL status and the alloted funding then there should be a some way it can be contested, especially with the reasoning that there are so many flaws in this system.

I haven’t really thought much about the ‘Live’ thing but internal audits/records can be a good thing - especially if it shows improvements.  I suggest some Live recording might Clubs keep up to date, rather than wait until an official Audit (3/6/12 months or whatever).

I am guessing but could the Auditing fees not be accounted for?  It will be manna from heaven to an auditing company.

[Dave T]

30 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Dave T , only if you know there are more than 12 Cat A clubs

Even though IMG have announced that the official grading scores for 2025 won't be announced until October 23 , they will have enough information already to ascertain the number of clubs that have the potential to reach Cat A status at the end of this season . I don't think it's a coincidence that they have recently announced that SL won't be above 12 teams for 2025 . They will know that there is no way more than 12 clubs can achieve the 15 points required for Cat A status.

DB at Leigh has said that he expects them to be the next Cat A club . He has said that RFL have agreed their score would go up by 2.5 points on the back of their latest financial accounts .

 

Cas and Wakey have both said that they don't think they will achieve the 15 points required for Cat A status , but have both stated that they strongly believe that a mid to high 14 points score will be enough to make the top 12. This suggests that maybe Leigh will be the only new team to achieve Cat A this season . 

 

 

All of that is just an unnecessary fudge though. They have designed a brand new system, it should be made fit for purpose and future-proof. 

Grade A is genuinely unnecessary unless they are going to be fluid with the number of teams in SL, which they won't be. 

The whole 'suck it and see what happens' approach doesn't demonstrate control. 

When you have a blank canvas, creating something flawed is a worry. 

[Ackroman]

Having seen the direction of travel of the game - full time, geographically strategic and eye catching entertainment. I was wondering what the part time clubs really offered this vision, particularly as the IMG vision is a long term strategy for the game.

I've been looking at the grass roots side of the game recently and noted that Dewsbury for example, has 4 clubs in the summer conference and a growing female game at the same level across Shaw Cross, Moor, Celtic and Thornhill.

So what is the point of the Rams? Way down the IMG ladder, no strategic ownership of it's catchment, no money, no real value to the community, either local or RL. They've never really recovered from the failed SL bid 20 odd years ago, and split their difference with Batley literally 1 mile away. If they disappeared, the community would still get it's fix of RL, and at a very good standard, and no-one outside the hard core would really care. Batley wouldn't get any benefit from it either, as they are on the same trajectory. It would simply be a matter of time.

For me it's like watching 2 old, bald men fighting over a comb and meanwhile the community game has got on with it, owning the crown jewels of the area. In fact pretty much all of top quality players from the Heavy Woollen area have come through a SL academy, not the Rams or Bulldogs.

So if IMG are going to achieve anything useful in the Heavy Woollen, they need to influence these 2 bald old men to merge. The new entity should focus on creating a pathway to SL due to it's improved gradings and be given ownership of talent from the community, alongside the community clubs. This probably is a pipedream but IMHO in 10 years I can't see both of these traditional clubs increasing their value to the game. The chances are they'll be long gone.

[Click]

6 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

Having seen the direction of travel of the game - full time, geographically strategic and eye catching entertainment. I was wondering what the part time clubs really offered this vision, particularly as the IMG vision is a long term strategy for the game.

I've been looking at the grass roots side of the game recently and noted that Dewsbury for example, has 4 clubs in the summer conference and a growing female game at the same level across Shaw Cross, Moor, Celtic and Thornhill.

So what is the point of the Rams? Way down the IMG ladder, no strategic ownership of it's catchment, no money, no real value to the community, either local or RL. They've never really recovered from the failed SL bid 20 odd years ago, and split their difference with Batley literally 1 mile away. If they disappeared, the community would still get it's fix of RL, and at a very good standard, and no-one outside the hard core would really care. Batley wouldn't get any benefit from it either, as they are on the same trajectory. It would simply be a matter of time.

For me it's like watching 2 old, bald men fighting over a comb and meanwhile the community game has got on with it, owning the crown jewels of the area. In fact pretty much all of top quality players from the Heavy Woollen area have come through a SL academy, not the Rams or Bulldogs.

So if IMG are going to achieve anything useful in the Heavy Woollen, they need to influence these 2 bald old men to merge. The new entity should focus on creating a pathway to SL due to it's improved gradings and be given ownership of talent from the community, alongside the community clubs. This probably is a pipedream but IMHO in 10 years I can't see both of these traditional clubs increasing their value to the game. The chances are they'll be long gone.

I am not sure why people always bring merging 2 clubs together will somehow make some super club, when does that ever happen?

Surely Batley and Dewsbury just need to actually get out into their local communities and start having an impact, that way if they were to disappear at least some people would notice. 

[JohnM]

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-English-football-clubs-have-united-in-their-names-What-does-that-mean#:~:text=In many cases it's ther,it another way%2C become united.

[super major]

42 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

For me it's like watching 2 old, bald men fighting over a comb

 

Why would they. Surely they would only fight over something they need and it is definitely not a comb.

As a member of the old bald brigade I think nowt to your metaphor.

Perhaps two young ladies fighting over Donald Trump would be more believable

 

[Ackroman]

54 minutes ago, Click said:

I am not sure why people always bring merging 2 clubs together will somehow make some super club, when does that ever happen?

Surely Batley and Dewsbury just need to actually get out into their local communities and start having an impact, that way if they were to disappear at least some people would notice. 

The point is, that ship has sailed.

[Click]

2 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

The point is, that ship has sailed.

I don't understand why that is the case.. They're both clubs that have been around for how many years? I don't understand how it couldn't possibly improve from this point.

They don't need to become big SL clubs, but they can easily be sustainable as a Championship side.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 hour ago, Ackroman said:

Having seen the direction of travel of the game - full time, geographically strategic and eye catching entertainment. I was wondering what the part time clubs really offered this vision, particularly as the IMG vision is a long term strategy for the game.

I've been looking at the grass roots side of the game recently and noted that Dewsbury for example, has 4 clubs in the summer conference and a growing female game at the same level across Shaw Cross, Moor, Celtic and Thornhill.

So what is the point of the Rams? Way down the IMG ladder, no strategic ownership of it's catchment, no money, no real value to the community, either local or RL. They've never really recovered from the failed SL bid 20 odd years ago, and split their difference with Batley literally 1 mile away. If they disappeared, the community would still get it's fix of RL, and at a very good standard, and no-one outside the hard core would really care. Batley wouldn't get any benefit from it either, as they are on the same trajectory. It would simply be a matter of time.

For me it's like watching 2 old, bald men fighting over a comb and meanwhile the community game has got on with it, owning the crown jewels of the area. In fact pretty much all of top quality players from the Heavy Woollen area have come through a SL academy, not the Rams or Bulldogs.

So if IMG are going to achieve anything useful in the Heavy Woollen, they need to influence these 2 bald old men to merge. The new entity should focus on creating a pathway to SL due to it's improved gradings and be given ownership of talent from the community, alongside the community clubs. This probably is a pipedream but IMHO in 10 years I can't see both of these traditional clubs increasing their value to the game. The chances are they'll be long gone.

Be careful what you wish for.

In the mid-1950s there were 30 schools playing Rugby League in east Manchester, with Belle Vue Rangers playing in the heart of that community.

The RFL, in its wisdom, decided to throw Rangers out of the professional competition because of some comparatively minor financial problems.

Within two years not a single school in east Manchester played Rugby League.

To get rid of a professional club can have unforeseen consequences, nearly always negative.

[The Blues Ox]

With Dewsbury Moor womens team been quite competitive, although they won't be near the top of the league this season, there is a chance down the line that Dewsbury could have a womens SL team although it would mean Moor Women becoming Dewsbury Rams. 

[marklaspalmas]

On 15/02/2024 at 14:24, dboy said:

You've got to let it go.

If only everybody else would eh?

[Ackroman]

4 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Be careful what you wish for.

In the mid-1950s there were 30 schools playing Rugby League in east Manchester, with Belle Vue Rangers playing in the heart of that community.

The RFL, in its wisdom, decided to throw Rangers out of the professional competition because of some comparatively minor financial problems.

Within two years not a single school in east Manchester played Rugby League.

To get rid of a professional club can have unforeseen consequences, nearly always negative.

I'm not advocating removal, I'm questioning the possibility of a merger due to the proximity and similarity of 2 relatively weak offerings.

 

[wasginger]

6 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

I'm not advocating removal, I'm questioning the possibility of a merger due to the proximity and similarity of 2 relatively weak offerings.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

I'm not advocating removal, I'm questioning the possibility of a merger due to the proximity and similarity of 2 relatively weak offerings.

 

 After this season when Wakefield have won promotion. The game below SL may as well disband. Because all they'd be playing would be friendlies with nothing at all to play for, plus any money from the SL television contract will disappear. So some clubs will fold straightaway while others it'll be a slow death.

[dboy]

Bloody hell. It's been dead for exactly 3 months and you have to dig it up again.

Let it go man!

[Damien]

2 hours ago, marklaspalmas said:

If only everybody else would eh?

They did!

[marklaspalmas]

46 minutes ago, Damien said:

They did!

A new thread heading towards 700 replies says they didn't 

[dboy]

9 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:

A new thread heading towards 700 replies says they didn't 

The last of which, until "you", was 3 months ago.

You're like one of those Japanese soldiers, hiding on a remote Pacific island, still fighting a non-existent war.

It's over. Like the Japanese; you lost.