Ivarr the Boneless Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) To be fair I'm not sure the club should be run for the fans. It should be run professionally, the fans are often just as guilty of demanding spending on the first team not the infrastructure. That doesn't excuse the state Broncos got into off the pitch though. Edited September 23 by Ivarr the Boneless 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Worzel said: I'm talking primarily about the era before that, the period pre-Harlequins and the first years of that venture. London were consistently a mid-table side for about a decade, but didn't build any infrastructure to make that sustainable - whether in terms of talent pathways, community engagement, or commercial growth. Thanks for your replies and I appreciate the insights from your time close to the club. You make fair points - perhaps in that late 90s-early 00s phase things really could have gone differently, and for not much more additional money the path to sustainability could have been laid. It would have had to involve extra money though, as anything less than mid-table on the pitch would have negated the benefits of a more enlightened investment policy in my view. You're right there needed to be a better mix, and I accept yours and Ivar's first hand accounts of Hughes getting it wrong, but it's also easy to tip the wrong way. Should the RFL have done all this for him? Well, in hindsight, yes, and I don't think we can underestimate the impact to the sport to losing it's major non-northern UK presence. But at the time, especially from 1996-2014, London was given a pretty good shot by the RFL, and I'm not sure we could have predicted how it would have turned out. Edited September 23 by Toby Chopra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) pictures of Cherry Red stadium on BBC news at the moment showing a sink hole due to the weather... scary really.. Edited September 23 by RP London 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmon Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Its the end of professional RL or even semi professional RL in london. As much as DH fustrated the hell out of me, and the move to wimbledon was bonkers as he did it by switching to Part time which still to me makes no sense, I did get 20 years of watching RL in London. I wish David well. But RL is dead in terms of top flight (and champ, L1 level) in London now. Looking to see just how much the next round of funding from sky brings in. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTISMAN Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 42 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said: I think it's the end of the road. There is nobody on the sidelines waiting to pick up this opportunity. I was hoping you'd say Kent Invicta at Ebbsfleet was the future! Seems not. Wish it was on a happier note i am optimistic that they can pull something off. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 17 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said: Thanks for your replies and I appreciate the insights from your time close to the club. You make fair points - perhaps in that late 90s-early 00s phase things really could have gone differently, and for not much more additional money the path to sustainability could have been laid. It would have had to involve extra money though, as anything less than mid-table on the pitch would have negated the benefits of a more enlightened investment policy in my view. You're right there needed to be a better mix, and I accept yours and Ivar's first hand accounts of Hughes getting it wrong, but it's also easy to tip the wrong way. Should the RFL have done all this for him? Well, in hindsight, yes, and I don't think we can underestimate the impact to the sport to losing it's major non-northern UK presence. But at the time, especially from 1996-2014, London was given a pretty good shot by the RFL, and I'm not sure we could have predicted how it would have turned out. Yes I agree, it would probably have needed more money, probably £400k per season back then. At the time I was frustrated that we brought in some players we didn't really need to bring in (e.g. Henry Paul's contract was a luxury) and could have better allocated those resources, but yes being more honest in reality we would have needed a better mix of players *plus* the other investment. The point was always though that rather than having to subsidise the club for the next 20 years (as he's ended up doing since), more investment up front would reduce the needs later. I think one challenge was that David Hughes was funding the club from his in-year income rather than from accrued wealth, so to be fair maybe he only wanted to put in so much each year, and front-loading wasn't a decision he was comfortable making. It's hard to begrudge a man choosing how he spends his money. That's why I think the real blame lies at the door of the RFL: An intelligent, strategic governing body would see the long-term benefits, and co-invest in the club. But of course the small-minded politics of our sport make that hard. Like I say, this feels like an opportunity we all missed together. It's on all of us. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eal Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) The Broncos had no real future with Hughes at the helm so not much has changed really. One less pin on the RL map but the club was nowhere near what is required to be a top tier professional entity, and much of the blame must lie with David Hughes. For the amount of money he has poured in he has little to show for it, and that isn't IMGs fault. Edited September 23 by eal 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 3 minutes ago, eal said: The Broncos had no real future with Hughes at the helm so not much has changed really. One less pin on the RL map but the club was nowhere near what is required to be a top tier professional entity, and much of the blame must lie with David Hughes. For the amount of money he has poured in he has little to show for it, and that isn't IMGs fault. It's certainly not IMGs fault, and as we've discussed Hughes made many mistakes, but he did one thing nobody else in this discussion did: He provided a London professional rugby league team for over 25 years, almost single-handedly. The only time another investor came along, he readily let them in. There were no other options, and what may regrettably happen now would instead have happened 25 years ago instead. A lot of spectators had a lot of enjoyment in those 25 years, and a lot of players had great moments in their careers in that time, or were given the opportunities that enabled them to go on to even better ones elsewhere. That's far more than "little to show for it", and I think we need to balance judgement with gratitude. 13 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssexRL Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 31 minutes ago, crashmon said: Its the end of professional RL or even semi professional RL in london. As much as DH fustrated the hell out of me, and the move to wimbledon was bonkers as he did it by switching to Part time which still to me makes no sense, I did get 20 years of watching RL in London. I wish David well. But RL is dead in terms of top flight (and champ, L1 level) in London now. Looking to see just how much the next round of funding from sky brings in. I have to agree. We have gone from one club in the capital in the Champ/SL and one in L1 to none and I cannot see anyone buying LB (hope I am wrong) so RL in London is now just a small amateur scene. I honestly don't know what the answer is and if all was hale and hearty in the heartlands then that would be something but it isn't. It does seem odd that a year or so after IMG that from Cornwall, to Cumbria to London the sport is in retreat. Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said: Its going to be very difficult for the club over the next couple of months moving forward and i really do wish them all the best. Ebbsfleet is a no go as the CEO has made it clear that rugby league is not investable at present. Even a sustainable club at championship level would be costing at least 800K a year hopefully the club will be able to find this moving forward. I presume you mean the CEO of the Ebbsfleet FC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 39 minutes ago, EssexRL said: I have to agree. We have gone from one club in the capital in the Champ/SL and one in L1 to none and I cannot see anyone buying LB (hope I am wrong) so RL in London is now just a small amateur scene. I honestly don't know what the answer is and if all was hale and hearty in the heartlands then that would be something but it isn't. It does seem odd that a year or so after IMG that from Cornwall, to Cumbria to London the sport is in retreat. Very sad. Which is better? "It does seem odd that a year or so after IMG that from Cornwall, to Cumbria to London the sport is in retreat. Very sad. Or "It does seem odd that 129 years after the birth of our sport that from Cornwall, to Cumbria to London the sport is in retreat, whilst it is gong from strength to strength in Australia. Very sad." 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbe Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 He should brought some land or a dissuade Stadium 20 years ago. There would be no crisis now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 55 minutes ago, Worzel said: It's certainly not IMGs fault, and as we've discussed Hughes made many mistakes, but he did one thing nobody else in this discussion did: He provided a London professional rugby league team for over 25 years, almost single-handedly. The only time another investor came along, he readily let them in. There were no other options, and what may regrettably happen now would instead have happened 25 years ago instead. A lot of spectators had a lot of enjoyment in those 25 years, and a lot of players had great moments in their careers in that time, or were given the opportunities that enabled them to go on to even better ones elsewhere. That's far more than "little to show for it", and I think we need to balance judgement with gratitude. That's fair but it's also easier to say when you're first and foremost a supporter of a different team. That connection away from the M62 just got even more tenuous for a lot of people. 2 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonM Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) 12 minutes ago, newbe said: He should brought some land or a dissuade Stadium 20 years ago. There would be no crisis now. The Hive, a 6500 capacity built on a derelict stadium site, which Barnet FC bought the *lease* for in 2006 and which the Broncos used for a couple of seasons.. Total cost so far is approaching £50 million. If it was that easy to get a new stadium built in London, I imagine rugby union clubs like Wasps and London Irish might still be around. Edited September 23 by JonM 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 4 minutes ago, JonM said: The Hive, a 6500 capacity built on a derelict stadium site, which Barnet FC bought the *lease* for in 2006 and which the Broncos used for a couple of seasons.. Total cost so far is approaching £50 million. If it was that easy to get a new stadium built in London, I imagine rugby union clubs like Wasps and London Irish might still be raround. We have done what the young people call 'discourse' on the "buy some land in Acton and just knock up a 12,000 capacity stadium" idea dozens of times. There was never a time when the Broncos were in a strong enough position to fund it, develop it and fight for it to happen. Might have been nice to try though. On an entirely related note, I've just seen that Bristol Flyers (basketball) are seeing their new building move one step closer (not actually being built) and that has approval, partners, location and 5,000 fans wanting it. They've been trying to get it done since 2018. 2 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 13 minutes ago, gingerjon said: That's fair but it's also easier to say when you're first and foremost a supporter of a different team. That connection away from the M62 just got even more tenuous for a lot of people. Yes, I get that. Of course it's less material for me - although I would say that of all other club's fans, people like me with a background of enduring the almost-death of our own have more understanding and empathy for your situation than most. The challenge is "who else?". Like I say, David was and is frustrating, but at least he tried to do something. But he was only a 'civilian' who liked the sport, the same as you and me, and I just don't see anyone else with means trying to step in and do a better job. Whereas the RFL have a duty, a responsibility to develop the sport and yet consistently fail to do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 35 minutes ago, Worzel said: Yes, I get that. Of course it's less material for me - although I would say that of all other club's fans, people like me with a background of enduring the almost-death of our own have more understanding and empathy for your situation than most. The challenge is "who else?". Like I say, David was and is frustrating, but at least he tried to do something. But he was only a 'civilian' who liked the sport, the same as you and me, and I just don't see anyone else with means trying to step in and do a better job. Whereas the RFL have a duty, a responsibility to develop the sport and yet consistently fail to do so. They do fail to do so, but it’s not their responsibility to prop up clubs, and they haven’t got the money to do that even if it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 42 minutes ago, Worzel said: Whereas the RFL have a duty, a responsibility to develop the sport and yet consistently fail to do so. I think we all know that what is going to save rugby league in this country is a two test series against Samoa with an afterthought women's international - all played exactly where all the rugby league in this country is already played. 3 3 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Wish. Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Russell Crowe interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE RED ROOSTER Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 2 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said: Ebbsfleet is a no go as the CEO has made it clear that rugby league is not investable at present. Paul, I thought Damien Irvine was a big league fan hailing from sutherland shire and watching Cronulla Sharks in his youth. On Mr Hughes departure, all he leaves behind is the club name and possibly some equipment, Only about 5-6 contracted players and no-home ground with even non-league Ebbsfleet FC thinking them an unviable revenue stream for their club. So if the club continues to exist, it will be at dilapidated Rosslyn Park RFC. Having withdrawn from the Richmond Athletic Ground at the end of last season. Always on the cards that the Hughes family would pull the plug post IMG. You have to remember the retired Oil Futures Traders own personal wealth is limited and the amount of money he has spent on the Broncos has been a family issue since the Brentford days early in the century. The issue for the game is three fold : Firstly, it is difficult for sports without a foothold in the Capital to be taken seriously by the sports media, For example, The auction for the Cricket franchises has over 50% of the sale value concentrated in buying the two London Franchises. And as we already see an M62 league gets a progressively smaller PAY TV deal. Secondly, as has been noted in this thread, Rugby League's footprint shrinks by the day. Those of us who live outside the M62 bubble notice interest in the sport in sharp decine in recent years. This means fewer fans, a shrunken playing pool and crucially fewer cashed up potential owners. Finaly, alhough the Broncos demise is causing a few "crocodile tears" amongst "scutterton scorpion" types on this board and elsewhere. In recent weeks there have been threads on money woes at Whitehaven, Halifax and mighty St Helens on this board. The danger of London Broncos descent into oblivion is the "domino effect" where like Rugby Union in 2023, League loses 3 clubs in 2025 as creditors panic and Owners walk not willing to subsidise clubs drowning in red ink. There are far reaching consequences coming out of today and not just for London fans. 4 Quote "I picked these lads thinking they were ready and clearly some of them are not. I'm not blaming the players" Paul Farbrace - Sussex CCC and ex-england coach engaging in Wordspeak.... You either own NFTs or women’s phone numbers but not both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastLondonMike Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 I cant honestly see anything other than the club going to the wall TBH. Theres no real desire from within the game for a London team. It will only carry on existing if an external 3rd party Eric Perez or Marwan Koukash type character pops up - but so much investment is needed to make the club a success i find it incredibly unlikely. The Broncos had plenty of opportunities to put things in place to give themselves a better chance of growth and long term sustainability but a complete lack of knowledge and ability to do so stopped that from happening - and it has to be said a complete lack of leadership from within the RFL to allow them to drift along for so long. I kind of felt the clubs biggest problems were always greater off the field. On the field the club achieved much more than many more established clubs. The level of money needed to make the club successful and function properly is what will likely stop that investment. Newham Dockers - Champions 2013. Rugby League For East London. 100% Cockney Rugby League!Twitter: @NewhamDockersRL - Get following! www.newhamdockers.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eddie said: They do fail to do so, but it’s not their responsibility to prop up clubs, and they haven’t got the money to do that even if it was. My point has been covered in more detail earlier. Supporting London (in the past, not now) is not and was never about supporting one particular club, it would have been about using one club as a platform to advance two important strategic needs of the sport: 1. Increasing the size of our overall talent pool 2. Increasing the value of our media rights and other commercial income A consistent, successful club in London could do those two things in a way no other single club could. The benefits of those two things would flow through to every single Super League club, indeed some would flow through to every rugby league club. Not just to London Broncos. The strategic thing to do would have been to use London as a vehicle to advance those goals. The non-strategic thing to do would be to say "it's just another club, no worthy of any more thought than any other", and leave it to succeed or fail on its own terms. As a sport we chose the latter path. It's symptomatic of the poor quality of thinking within the game, and now the opportunity has been missed and the moment has passed. Edited September 23 by Worzel Typo 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 54 minutes ago, gingerjon said: I think we all know that what is going to save rugby league in this country is a two test series against Samoa with an afterthought women's international - all played exactly where all the rugby league in this country is already played. ...but only after Angus Crichton has had his wedding, apparently. Saving rugby league in England isn't that important. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 3 minutes ago, Worzel said: ...but only after Angus Crichton has had his wedding, apparently. Saving rugby league in England isn't that important. They can’t get anything right. They’ve postponed the series for Angus Crichton instead of Stephen 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worzel Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 31 minutes ago, JM2010 said: They can’t get anything right. They’ve postponed the series for Angus Crichton instead of Stephen touche, my bad!! Doh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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